Here's the situation, Team A's coach doesn't know all the numbers of his team members. He fills out the scoresheet, and leaves the sport for 2 number blank. The coach tells you he's expecting both players to show up and play, and asks you how many t's he's gonna get for changing the scoresheetfor 2 players. Now both players show up. Is the technical foul assessed when the team members without numbers in the scorebook become players, or is the foul assessed when the team member's numbers are added to the scorebook?

Administrative T only.
 

These would be an Administrative T. So the Team gets one T and no more for the book being wrong. The foul counts toward the bonus as well.

Peace

If the game has started, you would administer the T the first time the scorebook is altered. The scorer should not agree to alter the scorebook until there is a stoppage, they should notify the ref, the change should be made, and the T assessed. A smart coach would at least wait until a dead ball where his opponent was getting the ball to do this :)

So just for clarification, the T is given at the point of the scorebook being altered. Right??

Yes - but only the first time the book is altered. All further alterations are freebies, although your unsolicited glares for ongoing book issues are not considered an official penalty :)

You guys are missing something.
 

The technical is issued because the name and number of each player has not been supplied to the scorer at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time. (10-1-1)

When the players arrive, I would allow him to put the numbers in the book.

If he then has to make a change in the book, after the 10 minute mark, such as changing another player's name, it would be a T. (10-1-2)

10-1-1 and 10-1-2 are separate issues and one T can be issued for each rule.

BBallref
I don't really think I am missing something here. This is not likely an HS game. It is most likely a rec game where names and numbers are never supplied until the game before just ended. A HS coach has a manager that has all the info and gets the book right. This situation is a coach with players who aren't there and no clue what their numbers are. The 10 minute rule never applies in these leagues. Most times you are watching the coach fill out the book hoping they will hurry up so you can start the game.

So the T is for changing the book after the game starts. I would never expect to see a T in these kind of games before the tip-off. And I hope (and sincerely believe) that the 10-minute rule wasn't the rule he is trying to enforce.

Coach, I'm not concerned with whether it's a rec game or a HS game. I'm answering the question based on what the rule is. If ref18 wants to elaborate and discuss what you might do in a more "liberal situation," then I'll certainly reply. But by rule, my answer is correct.

It isn't a question of a more liberal situation. It is a question of one gym, one book, game in progress, and names/numbers get put in the book immediately following game, immediately preceding next game. Warm-ups are 3-5 minutes - that's when the book is being filled out. This isn't a failure to follow the rules, it's a league that hasn't ever imagined using a 10-minute rule.

I had a juco game the other night, 14 visitors warming up, 13 visitors in the book at 11:00. By the time I got the visitors assistant to say "Wait! I know! We picked up a new player to replace one of our ineligibles!" (gotta love the junior colleges :rolleyes: ) the coach had taken his team off for their pregame locker room meeting. So at 9:30 the kid's name went in the book, at about 5 minutes when they came back onto the floor his number went in the book & we started the game without freethrows.

And my streak remains alive... :)

Without regard to that, the rule would require that the T come before the game started. If there's a name in the book, there's a number or we start the game with a T, even if the 10 min. requirement isn't followed.

And that's fine. I had a rookie coach on Monday night he didn't know the roster had to be submitted by the 10 min. mark. He filled it out, I signed off at the 7 min. mark and all was fine.

But in the situation we're discussing, the coach did not have the numbers available until the players arrived. Therefore, if he's going to put the names in the book before the game, then the T for no numbers happens before the game.

If he wants to wait until the players, who may or may not show, arrive, then he can put the names and the numbers in at that time and we can assess the T then. But if he wants the names in the book before the game, then we have a T if he doesn't have the numbers.

Personally, I don't care which he does but it will effect when the T is administered.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 3rd, 2003 at 07:18 PM]

NOW I understand where you are coming from. You are givign the T at the outset for not having the numbers with the names. n that case, a smart coach again waits until the players arive (who knows if they will!) and adds them at the next dead ball where his opponents get it.

HELLO!! MCFLY!!! :D

Thank you! I was wondering why I wasn't getting through. ;)

Mine ended last season b/c the visiting team used different jersey numbers for their home games. So the coach put the home numbers in the book, and the girls came out in their away uniforms, of course. :rolleyes:

So the scorer dutifully notifies the home coach, and they both call me over. Sigh. Gotta change 'em. Gotta give the T. First time I ever started a game with a T.

You didn't let this one end in OT did you? That would be a double whamy!

THis did happen in a high school game

Hawks Coach said the scorer shouldn't add this info until instructed. In a game yesterday, number 4 scored and the name and number wasn't in the book. The scorer then wrote in #4 and put in the 2 points. A minute later during a dead ball the scorer the scorer informed me that there was no #4 in the book so she wrote it in while the play was on to record the 2 points. The name of the player was still missing. Is it too late to assess the T because the scorer had written the number in? Is the T still assessed because the name is missing and needs to be added? What would have happened if the scorer knew the name of the player and had added it prematurely as well?

The infraction is penalized when discovered by the officials. Entering the information prematurely could be construed as a scorer's error, which can be corrected at any time. Bottom line, blow the T when the scorer tells you about it.

Why would anyone be proud of never starting a game with a T? That'd be like a cop proud of never giving a speeding ticket. You can look the other way on some minor things (the name going in at 9:30) but we had a JV game the other night that started with a T when the JV didn't have starters marked with 6:00 to go. Those 10 minutes are for the coaches to contemplate their matchups and other plans based on who is starting for the opponents. If a T has to happen, it has nothing to do with you as an official, and you shouldn't have a streak.

Last night we didn't get an FT violation called, in the third quarter of a close varsity game, after the official gave the shooter the ball, then recognized a player in one of the top spaces. He blew the whistle, took the ball back, told the player to move, and administered the second. I got him to come explain why there was no violation, and he told me that it was his fault she was there. I agreed, and then told him once the shooter had the ball, it was the violator's fault and not his, but he did not agree. Then his slimy partner told me that his partner kicked it next chance he got. I already knew that, but now I knew the other guy didn't have enough cajones to correct him at the time, and undercut his partner as well.

I'm afraid that's not true. The T is asssesed when the scorer makes the change. If the scorer doesn't inform the officials, no T can be assessed.

10.1.2 SITUATION: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member's number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction?

RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

Huh? :confused:

So you're saying we can be proud of ignoring "some minor" book things at 9:30 but we're wrong to let it go to 6:00.

Can you tell us more about what you mean by minor? And what we should do if your defintion of minor doesn't quite agree with the other coach's definition?

Can you give us a more definite time when we should go from being softies to being hard @sses? Maybe at 7:37? 8:23?

(Rhetorical if somewhat sarcastic obviously. I think you get my point.)

The first guy was right, take the ball back & reset.
You have the second guy figured out pretty well.

Dan,

I hear what you are saying. Personally I'd like to see the T if the starters aren't in at 9:59. I can live with a little discretion, but way too often it goes too far, especially at the varsity level. Things like "hands off" in the fourth quarter. If you keep warning and never call, what's the point?

And no, the first guy wasn't correct. If he didn't discover the player lined up out of position until after the shooter had the ball, there is no justification for him to call a "do-over".

Oops, that's what I did in my first (college) game this season last Saturday. Guess I booted it. As Dan would say, :shrug:

If we're shooting 2 or 3, and the players are in the wrong spots, I am not going to penalize the shooter on the initial shot. The "violations" had no effect on whether the ball went in or not. I going to correct it and shoot the next one.

I know you're a good coach because while we're discussing the play that just happened now in the 4th quarter you start b1tching about a play that is completely off topic & happened in the first quarter! :)

If we are ever able to enjoy a game together you'll find I don't warn and I go out of my way to not start the game with an admin T. In fact of the 6 games I've had so far this year 3 times we needed to ignore this, twice by me & once when I wasn't R. So you'll be half happy with my work. As for the FT violation, seeing as we're barely into December and this is the first year for you guys with the new line ups it would have been especially silly to handle it in any other way than how it was handled. Now, a bit of advice for the new referees out there: if you notice the players are lined up incorrectly simply blow the whistle & take the ball from the shooter. While you are wiping the excess moisture off the ball (or maybe there's a speck of dirt in your eye?) quietly tell the offending player to move. And if you run into PA Coach here and he tells you the violation carries over simply tell him sorry, you didn't notice any violation but you'll be sure to grab it next time. When all is good continue. And you will have a long, happy & succesful run as a basketball official.

I suppose they can try it your way, but if it hasn't worked for you. . . :D

:p

http://jomusky.tripod.com/jpg-bin/babyfinger.jpg

Tony, I had a very similar situation last season, and we assessed the T, which I now see from your reference, was wrong. But our situation was slightly different, and I'm wondering what you would have done. What happened in our case is that the visiting book person came to us at half-time, and said that the home book person had changed and not told us. Sure enough, after some investigation, we found out she had. So if you think there was an intent to deceive, what would be the penalty? Just to change the "official" score book to now be the visitor book?