I'm sure this has been discussed at length before.
I know the "simple" carrying the ball violation where a player is dribbling and gets his hand underneath the ball to change directions with it.
My question is, a player dribbling the ball and the ball hits a plart of that players body.
Example
A. player A driving up court and the ball hits him in the hip so that in essence the players body is under the ball. Carry? Double dribble?

B. female player bringing the ball up court. Ball bounces high enough that the ball hits her in the chest and literally rolls off her breast, at which point she "continues" her dribble. DD? Carry?

Sorry but rule/case/and comic books are really poor on this.

Carrying
 

Looks funny, something wrong, call it-----Don't! This happens alot in girls games because they have smaller hands. What I look for is, did the ball come to rest, meaning did the panels stop spinning while in the palm of hand, if so, you got carrying.

All of your examples above are legal.They are fumbles.

The "carrying" violation that you are talking about could actually be either a travel or an illegal 2nd. dribble. It occurs when,in the official's opinion, the dribbler causes the ball to come to rest in his hand,thus ending his dribble.If the player now takes an extra,illegal step and commits a pivot foot violation,he is travelling. If,instead,he dribbles again after the ball has come to rest, then you have an illegal dribble.

Actually, Jurassic, I've got some questions about this. My understanding is that once the ball hits the body, it has to hit the floor again before the player "bats" it with his hand. So it's not illegal in itself, but also isn't meaningless. Maybe a better way to say it is that the hit by the body counts as a "bat", and there can only be one "bat" per floor-bounce. Am I incorrect about this?

Juulie, the rules are pretty clear on this. 9-5 says that "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended. . ." So the relevant issues are: 1) what's a dribble, and 2) when does it end?

4-15-1 tells us that "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally striks the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times".

So bouncing the ball off of the body is not a bat, since a bat is with the hand(s). So bouncing off the body can't be a dribble.

As to (2) above, the dribble ends when the dribbler catches the ball, palms the ball, touches the ball with both hands simultaneously, or when an opponent bats the ball, or when the ball becomes dead. Since none of those things happens when the ball bounces off the dribbler's body, the dribble doesn't end, and s/he is free to continue dribbling.

In short, JR is r-r-r-r-r. . . JR is r-r-r-r-r. . . cough, cough. give me a second, I'll get it out. . . JR is r-right. :)

Okay, so....

What about if a player bats the ball with the left hand, and then the right hand before it hits the floor? Isn't that illegal? I guess I'm seeing the body touch as a parallel.

Chuck probably has a job so he goes to sleep at a decent hour. Luckily I am not burdened by all this. As I see it a bat with the hand is a deliberate act as opposed to the ball bouncing off the body which I picture as occurring most often when the dribbler has lost control. The ball may then bounce off some other part of the body without penalty. The other thing that I see quite often which has not been mentioned in this thread is when the dribbler pins the ball briefly against his/her hip, then releases it and continues to dribble. This is a double dribble. Am I right, Chuck?

The other thing that I see quite often which has not been mentioned in this thread is when the dribbler pins the ball briefly against his/her hip, then releases it and continues to dribble. This is a double dribble. Am I right, Chuck?

that was what my 1st Q was gonna be: I would have a carry, but it is a travel....so which is it?

What about if a player bats the ball with the left hand, and then the right hand before it hits the floor? Isn't that illegal?

This is an illegal dribble. The only ONE prob I see w/ this one is --is the player dribbling or did hejust grab/receive the pass? I mean, he could be in-stride, catch the pass in his left and bring both hands together and it ends up in his right hand before he dribbles. Now, who's gonna call that if he's running full sprint (or a little less) down the court? lol Unless the bat is intentional, right? How about not a bat, but a pass? that would be illegal dribble, right? But then, what if he's not running, but, rather standing and he the grabs pass w/ his left, puts in right and then dribbles; OR if he grabs pass w/ left, and passes to his right hand, to then dribble? Nothing if he's running, right?

What about if he's walking..nothing? It prob'ly really is elligal dribbling but........ what do ya'll do?

there can only be one "bat" per floor-bounce. Am I incorrect about this?

Rainmkr, I don't know about this, becuz look at how Dennis Rodman rebounded (but we are talking NFHS, too, tho), but I agree w/ Elias & JR--the dribble hasn't ended. The body is fair game, even though it "Looks funny, something wrong, call it" like Larry says. It may seem you get in trouble for NOT calling the "look-funny" ones, but I believe this is part of what seperates "good" from "best" official--that is, knowing when NOT to call 'em.

BTW, Larry, I like that tip: "did the panels stop spinning?" I'd never looked @ it that. I'll hafta try it. Thx.

goodluck ya'll...

Only if the ball comes to rest in the hands. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

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that was what my 1st Q was gonna be: I would have a carry, but it is a travel....so which is it?

What difference does it really make? Heck, I think even the FED gets it confused in one of the cases. In general, if the violation was for "moving the pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball", then call the travel. If it's for dribbling a second time, call the illegal dribble.

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What about if a player bats the ball with the left hand, and then the right hand before it hits the floor? Isn't that illegal?

Yes, but I'm not sure you can prove it from the rules. ;)

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This is an illegal dribble. The only ONE prob I see w/ this one is --is the player dribbling or did hejust grab/receive the pass? I mean, he could be in-stride, catch the pass in his left and bring both hands together and it ends up in his right hand before he dribbles. Now, who's gonna call that if he's running full sprint (or a little less) down the court? lol Unless the bat is intentional, right? How about not a bat, but a pass? that would be illegal dribble, right? But then, what if he's not running, but, rather standing and he the grabs pass w/ his left, puts in right and then dribbles; OR if he grabs pass w/ left, and passes to his right hand, to then dribble? Nothing if he's running, right? What about if he's walking..nothing? It prob'ly really is elligal dribbling but........ what do ya'll do?

As I read the play, I'd have nothing in either case. Catching the ball in the left hand and moving it to the right hand to start the dribble is nothing.

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there can only be one "bat" per floor-bounce. Am I incorrect about this?

In general, that's true

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Rainmkr, I don't know about this, becuz look at how Dennis Rodman rebounded (but we are talking NFHS, too, tho), but I agree w/ Elias & JR--the dribble hasn't ended. The body is fair game, even though it "Looks funny, something wrong, call it" like Larry says. It may seem you get in trouble for NOT calling the "look-funny" ones, but I believe this is part of what seperates "good" from "best" official--that is, knowing when NOT to call 'em.

"Tapping" the ball away from another player isn't the start of a dribble. There's a note to that effect in one of the relevant definitions.

Thanks, Bob :)

The batting of the ball from hand to hand the ball would have to come to rest in the hand to bat the ball to the other hand (I thinking that the ball is going across the players body and not downward). If the ball is going downward I would be more inclined to say is was a fumble.

Catching a pass in one hand and going to two hands then the other is nothing the dribble has not started yet (Casebook 4.15.4 situation E). A pass isn’t a dribble it doesn’t matter how you pass.

Remember the Fumble and Interrupted dribble rules.

If the dribbler pins the ball to his/her hip, and it stops rotating, I have the end of the dribble.

As long as the ball conitunes to move, I have no problem with it.

True, a pass is a pass and a dribble is a dribble. However, consider this. A1 catches the ball and does not use his dribble. A1 throws a long pass intended for A2. However, A2 doesn't see the pass. To prevent the ball from going OOB, A1 runs, catches up to the ball after it bounces and catches the ball.

Legal or not?

Well, it sure looks like a pass; but it was actually a dribble. So in this case an intended pass turned out to be a dribble. Just something to think about.

Gotta agree with that. There's nothing really definitive anywhere in the book that says that it is a violation,as far as I know- but it IS a violation. There used to be a case book play many years ago saying that the double-touch was illegal, but that one is buried under the sands of time now.

Two left hands
 

That's what the ref had. Or was it two left brains?

Even now, seven years later, I can barely bring myself to think about it. My older boy's team lost in the state tournament one year in a game where a play exactly like the one being discussed had a real effect. Last year I watched the video for the first time. Kid (who shouldn't have been in the game) dribbled with his left, ball came up, hit his left forearm, bounced and hit his right forearm, fell to the floor, and he tried to keep dribbling it. The official signaled double dribble . . .

I argued with him later, that there was no basis in the rules . . . it just looked funny.

I am very interested in any casebook rulings from yesteryear, whatever anyone has. I just want to know before I die . . .

It IS a pass a bad pass but still a pass.

Rule 4-31

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

A1 passed the ball to A2. A2 didn’t see the pass. So what it was a ball looking for player control A1 gets to the ball and picks it up again it’s nothing and A1 still can dribble.

Not correct. If A1 "picks it up" (e.g., both hands, holding the ball), A1 cannot (legally) dribble again.

The specific play is in the casebook somewhere.

But, it does lead to a couple of interesting questions: if A1 steps on the boundary line while running for the ball, is it OOB? ;) If A1 commits a foul while going for the ball, is it a player control foul?

Re: Two left hands
 

Seven years ago? I hope you're joking.

Anyway, how's the kid doing? Must be all growed up & out of the house by now.

Well, I'm going to push this issue a little to get some clarity. Here are some case plays I'd like some opinions on.

1) A1 is standing with the ball. A2 is standing, also. A1 passes to A2. A1 puts one hand up in the air to stop the ball, which drops to the ground then A2 catches it with two hands. A2 then releases the ball and dribbles down the floor. Legal?

2) A2 is running down the floor, dribbling with her left hand. Bounce, bounce, bounce... now as the ball comes up after the third bounce, A2 changes direction. Her left hand receives the ball, and pushes it again to the floor, but her momentum is carrying her away from the ball, so her right hand reaches down and pushes the ball again before it hits the floor. She does this to change the direction of the ball. Legal?

2b) same scenario except that as A2 changes direction, as the ball is bouncing up so to speak, her left thigh bumps the ball, which then drops again toward the floor but slightly askew. In order to maintain control, A2 reaches down with her left hand and pushes the ball to the floor to change its direction. A2's hand touches the ball between the time the ball hit the thigh, and the time it hit the floor. Legal?

2c) same scenario, except that as the ball bounces off the thigh of A2, she catches it with two hands. Legal? Does she have any dribble left?

3) A2 dribbles, bounce, bounce, as the ball is coming up from the floor, A2 bats it over the head of a defender, then on the other side, waits for it to hit the floor once before using the left hand only to continue the dribble. Legal?

4) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is standing, and closely guarded. A2 throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around and begins to dribble, using only one hand, (a)before the ball hits the floor, or (b) after the ball hits the floor. legal or not?

5) A2, standing, throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around the defender, then catches the ball using two hands before it hits the floor. Legal? Can she still dribble?

3)

I assume you mena "A2 puts one hand up to stop the ball."

Legal play, unless you judge the action by A2 to be the start of a dribble (approximately never).

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2a) A2 is running down the floor, dribbling with her left hand. Bounce, bounce, bounce... now as the ball comes up after the third bounce, A2 changes direction. Her left hand receives the ball, and pushes it again to the floor, but her momentum is carrying her away from the ball, so her right hand reaches down and pushes the ball again before it hits the floor. She does this to change the direction of the ball. Legal?

Depends. If you judge this to be an interrpted dribble / fumble, then it's legal. If you judge it to be a "planned" / "controlled" move, then it's illegal.

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2b) same scenario except that as A2 changes direction, as the ball is bouncing up so to speak, her left thigh bumps the ball, which then drops again toward the floor but slightly askew. In order to maintain control, A2 reaches down with her left hand and pushes the ball to the floor to change its direction. A2's hand touches the ball between the time the ball hit the thigh, and the time it hit the floor. Legal?

Ditto.

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2c) same scenario, except that as the ball bounces off the thigh of A2, she catches it with two hands. Legal? Does she have any dribble left?

Legal, but the dribble has ended.

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3) A2 dribbles, bounce, bounce, as the ball is coming up from the floor, A2 bats it over the head of a defender, then on the other side, waits for it to hit the floor once before using the left hand only to continue the dribble. Legal?

Legal.

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4) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is standing, and closely guarded. A2 throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around and begins to dribble, using only one hand, (a)before the ball hits the floor, or (b) after the ball hits the floor. legal or not?

(a) illegal. (b) legal if the ball was released before the pivot foot was raised

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5) A2, standing, throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around the defender, then catches the ball using two hands before it hits the floor. Legal? Can she still dribble?

Illegal. I'd call it travelling, but I think the FED calls it an illegal dribble.

Maybe. Was it controled. If so, the subsequent dribble was illegal. If not, no violation.
This is controversial but I say legal. The rules say the dribble ends when both hand touch it simultaneously. This was not simultaneously.

The rules also say that the ball may be batted into the air but must be allowed to hit the floor before touching it again. This was not into the air but to the floor. To understand this rule, you must go WAY back to the air dribble (which I think predates all of us).

Yes.
Legal. No dribble left.
Legal. Rule reference above.
a) travel. The pivot foot move before the ball was release on a dribble. b) legal.
Travel. Again, the pivot foot moved without giving up control and without a dribble.

Case Play
 

Why couldn't A1 Dribble again? A1 never dribbled prior to the pass. I could be wrong but I'd like to read the case.

rainmaker has been in the case book.

She pushes the ball twice, once with each hand and both pushes are downward?? I doubt if I would know if this is a violation or not, simply because it would be too quick to see.

Re: Case Play
 

You are wrong. See case book play4.4.5. Same rationale.

Re: Case Play
 

A1 can't dribble because it already has. What you describe is not a pass, it's the beginning of a dribble. When A1 retrieves the ball and strats another dribble, it's a double dribble.

Sorry, but it's not a pass. By the definition you just quoted, a pass is to another player. But in this play, A1 threw the ball to himself. So it can't be a pass.

Instead, I direct you to Rule 4-15-1: "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

That's what happened here. A1 threw the ball and let it bounce; that's pushing it to the floor. If it had gone to another player, it would fit the definition of a pass. But since it didn't go to another player, it must be a dribble.

If A1 catches the ball, then s/he has ended the dribble and may not dribble again. If A1 merely bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble, that's fine.

ok so if I'm getting the gist of all this, even tho the body (not the hand) is getting under the ball, even stopping rotation of the ball, as long as the dribble continues, it is legal.
That is the main thing I was looking for.

It would seem to me that if the ball comes to rest on the body (in a hand, against the stomach, knee, hip, etc.) and the dribbler then puts the ball on the floor for another dribble, you have illegal ("double") dribble.

Reference (for other than "in a hand"), please.

I think this is more a spirit of the rules thing.

For example, A1, who has been dribbling, pins the ball between his elbows, between an arm and hip, etc. The book doesn't say this ends the dribble. In fact, the player, by the written rule, could hold it that way indefinitely (ignoring counts and expiration time) and legally resume dribbling since only the hands are mentioned in ending a dribble.

In reality, I think every single one of us would call an illegal dribble if such a thing occured since we know that such a play is not what was intended.

In nearly every case, however, a hand will be involved.

The ball can't come to rest "against the stomach, knee, hip, etc." unless the hand is also against the ball. Therefore, if it comes to rest in the player's hand, the dribble has ended. So, the "other" body part is of non consequence.

If the ball comes to rest and the hand is touching it, the dribble has ended.

I can think of several body parts between which you can pin the ball without a hand touching it (one example in my previous post). It could be beteeen the legs (but above the knees), or between an elbow and hip, forearm and ... you get the picture.

Get over the semantics.
 

We're saying the same thing.

carry/illegal dribble
 

Zebracz, I wish I knew the rules and could quote them like you guys; But, on friday night during live action, if I see something and don't know what it is, I got nothing! My mind goes on auto, and its strictly Advanage / Disadvanage.

Re: carry/illegal dribble
 

Several years ago during a game, the head coach yelled, "He's carrying the ball." I responsed, " Why you say that?" Till this day, he has never asked me another question?

Well I just got something from the board. So now lets say the play happens but A1 has dribbled the ball prior to his attempted pass as soon as A1 touches the ball that would be called an illegal dribble right?

Assuming that you are talking about the long bounce pass that A1 recovers himself, then yes, you are right.