You toss the ball at center circle to start the game.
Your whistle is hangin'.
You get bumped by a jumper and the ball goes askew.
Partner watchin' what?
Clock starts on touch, You get bumped again; you fumble for your whistle, find it and blow the ball dead.
Clock says, "7:56".

Now what?
mick

bring it back and toss again. that's it.

And get the hellouttatheway this time! :)

Hey guys, why wouldn't you put the time back on the clock? You have definite knowledge of what it should be?? Just curious?

"Definite knowledge" applies to timing errors. There's been no timing error since the clock (apparently) was started & stopped properly.

It may not be correct per rule, but I would (and have) reset the clock since the game starts on the good toss.

Of course, I am in the camp that blowing it down causes more problems than it solves. YMMV.

Rich

Dan, I don't think it did start correctly...it should not have started, it was a dead ball, therefore started incorrectly. Just my thought, and hopefully 4 seconds wouldn't make a big difference...but then again you never know..

The clock starts on the touch (which Mick seems to be saying happened) and it took maybe 4 seconds for Mick to grab his whistle & blow it dead (and it looks like the clock was stopped) so the timer acted properly...unless you have something else in mind?

I didn't initially reply cause mick's little poem leaves much to the imagination. Was this a bad toss and therefore no toss? If so, re-set the clock. Or was this a good toss, no clear control (dual touch), ball subsquently OOB off both players, and therefore time should have run? If so, leave it alone and re-jump.

Whether or not the clock was started correctly...reset the clock and start over because its the right thing to do.

Got a rule, AR, case play or memo on this?



Got a rule, AR, case play or memo on this?


You guys could be right but I've never seen one.

5-9-2
If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

If the toss is bad, ball is not live and it is not legally touched, therefore clock doesn't start (or shouldn't). That's why I say re-set on first condition I outlined - obviously subject to debate.

As for starting in the second case, it seems clear to me. Ball was legally touched, clock starts on tap and stops on whistle. That's how the rule reads (stopping is in 5-8-1, and it is when official signals a violation, not when violation occurs).

The clock shouldn't start until the jump ball is legally touched.

If the R doesn't throw the ball up at in a plane at right angles to the sidelines and dso the ball will drop between the jumpers, it's not a jump ball, so the ball isn't legally touched.

And, yes, I'm reaching to find rules that support what I think is the "right" thing to do here.

[/b]

Got a rule, AR, case play or memo on this?


You guys could be right but I've never seen one.
[/B][/QUOTE]I have. Casebook play 5.10.1SitA- <i>"In instances where the the timer has <b>NOT</b> made an obvious mistake, the referee is <b>NOT</b> authorized to either put time on the clock or take time off the clock"</i>.

That's pretty clear. Forget about putting the 4 seconds back on. The rules won't let you.

The ball is live when it leaves the R's hand(s). The clock is started when it is legally touched. I would really like to see a rule that really gives a strong foundation for putting the time back on the clock. I've never heard of this but there is a first time for everything.

Thank you Jurassic.

Hmmm....what I got loosely says the jump starts when it leaves the officials hand & ends when it's touched; the game clock starts when the jump ball is legally touched; the toss shall be repeated when a bad toss is made.

As you say the only thing you have to hang your hat on (IMO) is what constitutes legally touched. I tend to think it means a touch that does not otherwise violate the jump ball provisions, and might also mean the ball is to be touched inbounds.

I can't for the life of me see how it means the ref didn't screw up the toss. And I surely don't see where it says the bad toss requires us to put expired time back on (and maybe even ignore fouls except for flagrant or intentional fouls blah blah blah...?). I mean, words to this effect are there for other times we screw it up, why not this time?

Forget your second case, it's trivial. (And forget JR's post, it makes the answer all too clear & short circuits a good discussion ;) )

As I asked Bob, how does a BAD toss mean the ball can not be subsequently LEGALLY touched?

(And forget JR's post, it makes the answer all too clear & short circuits a good discussion

[/B][/QUOTE]Well,if you don't need me, I guess I'll go have my nappy then.

I agree with HawksCoach, obviously since I was the first to say put it back on the clock :)..My thinking is, the ball isn't legally touched because the toss isn't "legal" for lack of a better word. When the referee realizes that the toss is bad, it becomes a dead ball regardless of the whistle (whistles don't make the ball dead except for inadvertant whistles)..since the ball is dead it is not "legally" touched and therefore the clock was started improperly, through no fault of the timer but still improperly...so I say reset it to 8:00 and let's go again..besides it is the "right" thing to do ;)

I have. Casebook play 5.10.1SitA- <i>"In instances where the the timer has <b>NOT</b> made an obvious mistake, the referee is <b>NOT</b> authorized to either put time on the clock or take time off the clock"</i>.

That's pretty clear. Forget about putting the 4 seconds back on. The rules won't let you. [/B][/QUOTE]


Good case, I agree with JR all the way on this one.

If a toss is bad, it is bad before it reaches its apex (except in an outdoor game with high wind conditions :) ). I agree with cmatthews, there was no legal touch because the ball was dead before it was touched due to the bad toss. The whistle doesn't make it so, it just lets everybody know about it. The time should still be 8:00.

Not sure about whether I like using JR's rule in this case. The question is whether or not this is a timing error. I believe that if the ball has yet to be legally touched, we would put the time back. Antoher example of this would be on an inbounds play. Ref tries to call 5 seconds, had whistle in hand because coach was asking him a question, ball is released, whistle is late, ball is touched, 2 seconds runs off the clock. If there were 2.2 seconds left in this scenario and you called 5 seconds, and now 0.2 shows on the clock, aren't you going to put time back on. The ball was legally touched inbounds before the whistle, but it was in fact dead before the whistle and touched after it was dead. That is the same as this jump ball scenario.

JR's rule does lead to a decent result from a getting started perspective. We can waste time putting the 4 seconds back on, or we can toss and play as JR says the rules would have us do. And since we have 32:00 or 31:56 to play, I don't think it matters as much as an end-of-game timing scenario.

It might make a difference in the OT periods. Assuming you've done everything to prevent the OT.

Thanks, Stan

Mechanics Manual
 

Although it isn't in the rule or casebooks....

The Official's Manual says in paragraph 212:
If the toss is poor, either official shall sound the whistle immediately, signal the clock should not start and order a rejump.

None of us are quick enough to get our whistles back into our mouths and "signal that the clock should not start" and timers are not quick enough to recognize such a situation and not start the clock. Soooo, with this guidance I would have to assume that we should put the clock back into the condition it was before it started - reset time.

We already disagree.

Anywho....
Where does it say a BAD toss = an ILLEGAL toss?
Where does it say to replace the time elapsed?
What if there's a foul...ignore it?

Re: Mechanics Manual
 

However, in this play the U1 did signal the clock to be started, making these instructions irrelevant. ANd properly causing time to come off that can't be put back on.

Dan
Where do you get that interp of the sitch or the casebook? sitch never says U1 signalled, nor does the casebook specifically address an improper signal for the clock to start.

If the U1 improperly signals the clock to start on the front end of a two-shot foul when B1 jumps in and rebounds it, is that not able to be fixed simply because U1 improperly signalled the clock to start? How about U1 chops clock on a fake inbounds pass, then there is a five second count, and 3 seconds ran off the clock. This is now not a timing error by the timer so it can't be fixed? That's kind of silly if you ask me.

Common sense says the clock doesn't start on a bad toss. The Official's Manual backs that up. why fight it?

In Mick's case U1 (and U2 if there) obviously were happy with the toss, so U1 signalled on the touch per rule. Which means the timer properly started the clock. In your other cases the signal is made in error and counter to rule: ball dead after first of 2 FTs - timer error, clock starts on touch on throw-in - timer error.

There is simply no rule that allows us to put time back on the clock in the case of a late whistled bad toss. You might not like it but that is the case, and common sense has nothing to do with it. If it were the case the rules would say so & we would know what to do with points scored & fouls committed during the time that came off in error.

No, in Mick's case the ref was bumped while tossing the ball, and the ball went askew. Nowhere does it say the ref was happy with the toss. The U thinking the toss is OK is not in the post, but even if it was it has nothing to do with it. It was a bad toss, whistled late. The ball was never properly live, never legally touched, the clock was improperly started.

This is really a rare kind of case anyway, but could happen and the book tells you what to do. If you choose to ignore it for convenience or whatever other reason, it's not the technically right thing but it's your game - call it your way. And this won't make a whole lot fo difference.

I'd also like your answers on my other clock shouldn't have started cases and your justification for the answers. How are they different or are they?

Agree

Disagree, and I'll ask you again to show where in the rules there is support for this. That's all.




You keep saying this but you have yet to prove it by rule, case play, a.r. or memo.

I did this already. In both cases the clock is started in error counter to rule. In Mick's case the clock is started on the touch & the ball is whistled dead 4 seconds later for a bad toss. The rules allow us to rejump (explicitely) but not restart the game.

The ball is legally touched. What did the players do that is illegal. It is a bad toss. Not an illegal toss. Is there such a thing as an illegal toss? Someone needs to find it in the rule book where is says something about putting time back on the clock for a bad toss. Yes, the clock shouldn't start but if it does where does it say you can put time back on the clock?

...And you reference for the clock not starting on a bad toss is...? ;)
mick

Mick what I meant by that is if the toss is immediately blown dead then this will happen before the clock starts. This is a matter if tenths of a second though. I just don't think you can go back and put time on the clock. So, the answer to your question is I don't have a reference. Normally, I wouldn't be concerned with the state of the clock in this situation unless the clock continues to run after the whistle.

The toss is bad, this means the ball remains dead, a whistle only causes a dead ball in one situation (inadvertant whistle), in all other cases it confirms that the ball is dead. If the ball is to remain dead it can't be legally touched, if it can't be legally touched the clock can't properly start, if the clock can't properly start then it is a timing error that can and in my mind should be corrected. I also think that some justification for this is from the officials manual the DownTown pointed out. Most of the rules have a logical and justifiable explanation and usually fair play is central to that explanation. Should the kids lose 4 seconds because of a bad toss? I don't think so, so I think the right thing to do is put the time back up and go again, and I think it is justifiable with the statement from the officials manual.. my 2 cents for the 10th time, does that mean I am almost up to a quarters worth?? LOL :

Nope. The ball is made live when the toss is released. That's the case for a good, bad or indifferent toss.

Dan, if that is really the intent of the rule then what is the justification for tossing again? I don't have my books so I can't quote, but the jist of the toss says it shall be tossed at right angles to the sidelines and division line or something close....since it wasn't it isn't a good toss, if it isn't good it shouldn't become live, just as if you hand the ball to the player at the throwin spot and it is mishandled, the count doesn't continue while you retrieve the ball, so it is pretty similar....either way, I will put time back on the clock and go...

The ball is made live unconditionally on the toss...look it up in rule 6. If the toss is too low, too high or at an angle we are given, by rule, an opportunity to correct it. There are not many ways to put time back onto the clock. This sitch is not one of them.

Look in the NFHS manual, somewhere around section 200-220. It does mention in the 2-official section that if a toss is blown down the officials are to make sure the clock hasn't started. Or something like that. I left my book in the car, but I remember reading something like this last night. Could someone look it up and see whether this applies?

First game tonight, varsity boys. 34 games until baseball season :)

Rich

Rich,
Paragraph 212 according to DownTownTonyBrown

That's the section I was talking about. I wish I would've read the thread more carefully.

I would put the time back up. Any coach that would argue this at the beginning of the game is going to cause me bigger problems than this.

Rich

Yeah, Rich, it's 212. It says, "If the toss is poor, either official shall sound the whistle immediately, signal the clock should not start and order a rejump." Paragraph 321 makes the same point in reference to a 3-whistle crew.

It states clearly that the clock should not start. Notice, however, that it doesn't say what to do if the clock does start.

Paragraph 215 says that if there's a violation before the jump ball is legally touched, then the clock should not start. But a bad toss is not a violation.

But it also means that the toss really never happened.

If one of the umpires is blowing down the toss, does s/he really intend to start the clock?

Of course, this is all hypothetical since I never blow down a toss :)

Rich

Good point Rich. Here we are arguing over this all day and the answer is staring us in the face.

1. In a 2-person or 3-person the clock has to be started by an official. If the official blows the toss then he/she never chopped the clock. So, if the clock starts we have to go to one of the problems we don't talk about enough, THE TABLE! They need to quit spectating and become part of the team. Forget about what they think and when they think the clock should start. Look at when the ref chops the clock.

2. In this situation if the official tossing the ball had to stop the clock then I can see why there is an argument about putting time back on the clock. Also, the other official needs to get on the ball and get some guts.

Of course the toss happened. The ball was made live, the clock properly started presumably on the U1's chop (remember, the R blew it dead?) and 4 seconds later the ball was made dead on the whistle. It happens. Toss it back up & continue with 19:56.

BTW, although I never say never, I agree it's got to be one hell of a bad toss before I blow it back. :)

Well I agree with what is said in the officials manual....The clock should have never started in the first place. If it did, I am going to the table bring both coaches together tell them we are going to start the game with 8:00 on the clock and the clock should never have been started. Its the right thing to do.

Contact is a foul, unless it is incidental contact.....from ready posts in here, I know we let a lot of incidental contact go instead of calling a foul, why, because most of the time it is the right thing to do and makes for a better flow to the game.

Just my opinion! and my 2 cents!

AK ref SE

If the referee blows it down then there's another problem we aren't talking about.

The R doesn't have a whistle in his mouth. To blow it down, he'd have to toss, recognize the bad toss, bring the whistle in his mouth, and blow. By that point, if it REALLY is that bad, an umpire should've already killed it.

There are 4 quarters in a game and the toss just sets the arrow. It has to be a really dreadful toss (for instance one that goes untouched by the jumpers) before I'd blow it back. The coaches and spectators will forget how crappy my toss is pretty quickly. I may be more inclined to blow one down in overtime.

I'll have to be the U tonight now that I set myself up for a bad toss.

Rich

It might be the right thing to do, but you have absolutely <b>no</b> rules basis to do so, unfortunately, in this particular case. The timer <b>started</b> the clock correctly, <b>by rule</b>, when the ball was tapped. Four seconds later the timer <b>stopped</b> the clock correctly, <b>by rule</b>, when the official blew his whistle. The timer did <b>not</b> commit a "timing error" of any kind. The manual reference doesn't apply for the simple reason that the official did <b>not</b> signal for the clock to remain stopped in this case. If he had done so,and the timer had then ran the clock for 4 seconds,- then,yes, you could say that the timer had now committed a "timing error". There is <b>no</b> rule,play, etc. available that will allow you to put time back on the clock for this play. AAMF, casebook play 5.10.1SitA specifically says that the refereee <b>can't</b> put any time back on the clock.

Sheez, four pages about four seconds at the beginning of a game, and four pages about belts. We definitely need some new blood on this board.

I am digging deep on this one, and I am sure that someone will say that I can't use this rule in this scenerio!

Rule 2.3
Referee's Authority
The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

I still say that I am going to put the time back on the clock to start the game. Clock should have never started.

AK ref SE

In response to Jurassic's use of bold print:

I'm going to give the most politically incorrect answer possible. I simply don't care whether there is a black-and-white justification for me to do so. I'm putting the time back on the clock and we're starting with 8:00 on the clock.

Somebody please follow this post with the typical response asking me which other rules I'm going to choose to ignore.

(Traveling and palming, probably, but I digress :) )

Juulie is right. We do need some new blood or at least something new to talk about.

Compression shorts? Patent leather shoes? Type of lanyard used? I think I'm going to go with the noose tonight, myself along with my New Balance shoes.

Rich

OK,I'll say that you can't use R2-3 because the the play <b>is</b> already covered in the rules,specifically the casebook play that I referenced.You can't ignore that one just because you don't agree with it.

I'll also say that if this same play happened to me, and if I was the R as in mick's original post-way baaaaack:
1)I would call for a re-jump.
2)I would tell the timer to re-set the game clock to 8:00,20:00,whatever, without even trying to explain why to the coaches.

You don't try to kill a gnat with a cannon.

Oh, that's just great! Now tell us what other rules you'll ignore....



...oh wait...well never mind that! But I bet you're the type of guy that uses a damn noose instead of a smitty!

..uhmmmm....OK, then have a good game!!

Some people

:p

Yup,and you would still be wrong, by rule.

And nobody in the free world would care, either, that you were wrong.I'd do the same thing, Rich.

This was just a nice little philosophical, what-if rules discussion. Not that much relationship to the real world.

et tu, geezer?

Soooo, what kind of compression shorts you wearing these days?

Not that you got much left to compress.

Soooo, what kind of compression shorts you wearing these days?

Not that you got much left to compress.

[/B][/QUOTE]http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Picture/Animal/roo.jpg

Okay, I'll put in my 4 cents.

#1 - Once the ball is tossed, it's live. There's no rule that states a bad toss prevents the ball from becoming live. There's no rule that says the ball is dead because the toss is bad. The whistle makes the ball dead, not the bad toss. This ain't football.

#2 - As has already been said over and over again, there's no rule that allows you to put time back on the clock in this case, when the toss has been legally touched. If you give the wrong team the ball on a throw-in, you can't correct it, even if it is the "right" thing to do.

#3 - What should have happened is that the U1 should not have chopped the clock. Instead, he should have killed the play. He didn't, the clock started, the 4 seconds are history. Blame the U1 for screwing the pooch.

#4 - mick, if my U1 doesn't kill this, I ain't blowing.

http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Picture/Animal/roo.jpg [/B][/QUOTE]

Whoa. Quite a pair of ears ya got there kid.

Great minds do think alike.

Now...about that sliding business... :eek:

Oh, I have no problem with him sliding. :)

BTW, this was brought up at our last local clinic, and not by me.

The group was equally divided.

I sat there in silence, as I was already tired of discussing it. ;)

I couldn't believe it went four pages and we were still on topic..

Oh, I misinterpreted then. Sorry. I've been a baseball umpire as long as I've been a basketball official (late 80s) and I'm used to rule sets that simply don't cover everything that happens in a game. Baseball's 9.01(c) is famous because it is the catch-all that covers that and I'm sure basketball has something similar, but I simply don't remember rule numbers the same way I do in baseball.

BTW, I used the smitty last night. Brought both the New Balance and my last pair of Run 'n Refs to the game in case the NB shoes hurt my feet and I needed to change out a halftime. Fat chance. The difference between the RnR shoes I bought in 1996 (I bought six pairs and broke this pair out last season) and the NB 609 shoes is like the difference between a Yugo and a BMW. It felt like I was wearing slippers (with support) out there. The RnR's are now officially retired.

Rich

Rich
Since half the people seem to believe the rules tell you to put time on and half seem to believe this is a non-correctable timing issue, I think that there is nothing in the rules that clearly and specifically tells you what to do. Therefore, your interprretation is the MOST correct of any - use the elasticity rule for either way of doing things (leaving time off or putting it back on) and you are right. :)

The correct solution,then, is to put 2 seconds back on the clock. ;)

I'm not putting time back on the clock. The legality of the ball being touched refers to the restrictions in 6-4-6 and 6-4-7. The timing rules (5-9) merely state that that the clock is started when the ball is legally touched. The ball or the toss have nothing to do with the legality of the touching.

In addition, when you look at 9-6, it states that if there is a simultaneous violation or a bad toss, the toss is repeated. There is no mention of resetting time for a violation or a bad toss.



Now, if you want to argue that the referee has definite knowledge and looked up at the clock before blowing his whistle . . . . .

Mick,

I have lost all respect for you. How could you of all people make a mistake on a toss. I thought you were the "god" of basketball officiating. I use your questions and responses to make myself a better official. I print out your reply's to keep in my study guide. How will I ever get ahead if I can no longer rely on your knowledge of the game.

CLAY,

You should pick your battles more carefully. If the members of this board held an election, mick would be Prom King!

And Chuck would carry his balls!

http://www.hanie.com/images/basketballs.jpg

No, no, no!
 

Geez, Clay,
I wrote:
<LI>"<B>You</B> toss the ball....
<B>Your</B> whistle is hangin'.
<B>You</B> get bumped by a jumper....
...<B>You</B> get bumped again;
<B>you</B> fumble for your whistle ...."

I never said <b>I</b> messed U.P. that toss!
I never said <b>I</b> got bumped by a spastic 7th grader!

mick

<font size = 1/3 color = red><B>...and I didn't reset the clock, either. ;) </Font></B>

If the members of this board held an election, mick would be Prom King! [/B][/QUOTE]
http://deephousepage.com/smilies/respect.gif

Wait a minute. Didn't mick organize his prom? And he's somehow also prom king . . . . . I smell something fishy.


Time to send in the election monitors!!!

http://www.datamanos2.com/parodies/lepore.jpg

Time to send in the election monitors!!!

[/B][/QUOTE]Mick's got a hangin' chad?

Could be worse - he could have a pregnant one!