A1 drives the lane, takes off for a try. B1 commits an intentional foul on A1. The try is successful.

I realize that this situation is covered in the NF Illustrated Rules, 10-6 Pen 4. Count the basket, award two free throws and ball to team A.

A veteran official whom I respect told me that he would not call it this way. His point was that this play could result in a 6 point play for team A, and that he didn't want to see the game decided on it. Call a personal foul, count basket, award one free throw.

Help a rookie out, what's the "right" call? Stick to the book or consider the effect to the game? I realize this poses a much bigger question, and I am very interested in experienced opinions here.

Matt
(first HS game next Monday night)

Matt, most of the time, your friend is right. If it's a toss-up between a common foul or an intentional, then I'm probably going to call the common foul, and just give one shot. However, if the defender causes really excessive contact (two-hand shove into the third row, while the shooter's in the air), then you will need to call the intentional foul and administer it correctly. The main thing is not to try to split hairs on the intentional foul. If it might or might not be intentional, then it's not.

Actually, it could end up in an 8-point play!! 3-point shot is good, intentional foul is two FTs, then inbound for another 3-pointer!! Oooooo, anybody ever see that?!?!

Have a great game on Monday!!

Chuck -- I saw an 8-point play once under somewhat different circumstances. B (which was my daughter's team) was behind by about 15 near the end of the third quarter. A had possession and was granted a 60 time out. They would receive the ball opposite the table in their back court just above the free throw line extended when the TO was over. Horn went, second horn went, no one came out. Ref hollered, whistled, no motion toward floor. Finally, ref put the ball down and started counting. STILL no motion by either team. Ref got to 5, blew the whistle, signaled that now it's B's ball, STILL no motion by either team. Ref put the ball down again, started counting again. At this point, a player on my daughter's team, Team B, saw somehow what was going on and knew enough to grab a team mate, race across the floor, inbound the ball and make an easy 3-point shot. NOW we got some action!!! Coach A goes postal and started running across the floor, got to the center circle before the ref called a technical. B made both shots, and during the shots Coach A had his girls huddled over near the bench. When the ref got ready to hand off the ball, Coach A STILL didn't have his girls out on the floor. B inbounded for another easy three point shot, as the A players were running out to their positions. They did finally get back into the game enough to inbound the ball under the basket. A still won, unfortunately.

Oh, and Matt, here's the most important piece of advice for your game Monday: HAVE FUN!!!!

This is my biggest pet peeve. The rule is there for a reason. If a player commits an intentional foul in this situation, his team should suffer the consequences. If you make the call according to the rule and administer the penalty properly, then it is the player who is deciding the outcome of the game, not the official.

If you choose not to make the correct call because of the severity of the penalty (or for any other reason), then you, not the player, are determining the outcome of the game.

This is the same misguided philisophy that causes some officials not to call fouls at the end of a close game unless they are "hard" fouls, even though they've been calling a certain level of contact a foul throughout the entire game.

This is just plain flat-out wrong.


Now, I'll tell you how I really feel about it.

Thank you, Mark
 

If the foul was clearly intentional then you have to call it that way, the kid who fouled decided the game, not the ref. You will do fine if you remember this one thing.

Well said Mark-

Actually play!
I have called several intentional fouls where this has happened. Team A is on a fast break, Team B player graps player A from behind around the waist ( no attempt what so ever on the ball) Basket good, two shots and the ball.
Tell me why that should not be called that way?

AK ref SE

In my opinion, if it meets the definition of an intentional foul call it that way and don't take the easy way out. We used to call that "bailing out". I'm surprised at some of the responses here!

There was an initial situation that almost every respondent reacted too, and then Chuck's response, with which I somewhat agree. He merely stated that if the shot is made, the intentional had better be clear. I would argue that the same standard should always apply - don't look to call an intentional just because it is a situation in which you think somebody might foul intentionally.

If it is intentional, it is clearly intentional, and it should always be intentional.

I would be very very very very sure
 

If it is indeed an intentional foul call it, (I had one last night on an obvious breakaway layup), but if he simply fouls hard give the defense the benefit of the doubt since he did make the basket.

I don't have a problem with an intentional foul, but I would just be 110% sure that's what it was.

This would be like a simultaneous foul. Someone probably fouled first.

Thanks
David
Da

Two comments:

By all means have fun. And words of wisdom RELAXE while doing the game.

To Mark, right on! Why should the ref step in and help determine the outcome of the game when the player chose to commit the foul. I'm with you Mark all the way on this one!

As stated if we are 110% sure then call it. I have been taught by my mentors that an intentional in the first quarter is the same as an intentional in the fourth quarter or on a drive to the basket. I think we are deciding a game by choosing which fouls (even if intentional) we will call when we know that we saw the foul.
Also there are those things called consistency and itnegrity that might come in to play with ourselves and those watching.
Have fun Monday!!

I could not have said it better my self, Mark.

MTD, Sr.

I totally agree with Mark that a call should be made the same at the end of the game as at the beginning of the game. Since we are discussing intentional fouls, I find it to be a difficult situation when a team is down by a few points at the end of a game and are in a foul situation. Everyone in the gym knows that this team must foul an opposing player and at times the "fouler" must leave no doubt of the foul (in order to get a quick call and stop the clock). To me, this foul appears intentional, but I have never seen an intentional call made in this situation. If the foul seemed "overly aggressive" and the player was not making a play on the ball, I feel an intentional foul would be warrented. My guess is that the place would go balistic.... Any pointers on this one??

Rock'n Ref

Yeah. Make the right call. Who cares how the place "goes"? If games were decided on how a majority of the fans in the gym feel, we wouldn't even have to play them.

My partner last year called an intentional foul toward the end of the game, Team B had to foul. Player A1 had the ball B1 grabbed the back of A1 jersey. No play on ball. Coach and fans were upset. But, Coach B knew it was the right call after he calmed down, and kept yelling at his players after that call to play the ball.
Good call in my opinion

AK ref SE

Should a T been called on Team B?
 

I don't have my rule book with me, but doesn't it say that there is a technical foul if the entire team does not return to the floor at approximately the same time? Were the two girls the only two from B on the floor? If they were, is this not a technical foul? And if so, when do you blow the whistle? Has any one ever called a technical in a similar situation?

Re: Should a T been called on Team B?
 

I don't have my rule book with me, but doesn't it say that there is a technical foul if the entire team does not return to the floor at approximately the same time? Were the two girls the only two from B on the floor? If they were, is this not a technical foul? And if so, when do you blow the whistle? Has any one ever called a technical in a similar situation?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Funny you should ask this tonight, because I had to call it tonight!! But the answer to the first question is, that it's only a T if the players who don't get onto the floor in the beginning, try to come onto the floor after a time. I mean, it's okay to have only two or three players, but then the other three or two can't come onto the floor later on. Which is what happened tonight. Four players on the floor. Fifth didn't realize she was supposed to be "in". Ball comes inbounds, is dribbled up the court, and --whish!-- blue player jumps up off bench and dashes onto the floor. Easy, if sad, call. Although blue won, anyway.

Re: Re: Should a T been called on Team B?
 

Who didn't count the players before the ball was put in play?

Five aside or the ball stays in my hands. I count the players after every situation like this (sub, timeout, end of quarter). If my partner has the ball, my hand is up. If I ever have a situation like this, I'd call the technical, but I'd be kicking myself for it for a while.

I hope everyone isn't coming down on Chuck. I see his point. If it is borderline intentional, it shouldn't be called intentional anytime. But some officials have a, ahem, unique idea of what constitutes an intentional foul and that borderline call really hurts when the ball goes in as well. I'd like to hear a description of the original play myself -- was it really intentional? To be honest, I haven't had an intentional in 2 seasons.

We had a 6-point "play" last night. 3-ball thrown up and my partner called an offball foul on B. A gets the 3 and the ball back and they jack up another 3.

Rich

Question to the masses:

In a game the other night, the Center on the Red team kept grabbing the opposing team's Center's jersey. He only did it when the were jockeying for position, and it never resulted in the jersey being extended away from the body. He simply would lay his hand on the players back and make a fist with the jersey in hand.

When I saw an advantage take place I called the hold (common foul), administered the penalty and went on. The question is, is this intentional. By Webster it is clearly intentional, and I've seen it called that way. I thought making that call would open a can of worms I preferred to to deal with and didn't make the call. I discussed it with my parntner at half-time and he agreed with me. However, in looking back on the game I can't help but think I should have called it the first time I saw it and ended it right there.

Any thoughts?

I don't think I would call it intentional
 

Was he fouling the player? Don't sound like it so I would not call it a foul.

This would be a good opportunity though to verbally tell him, "don't do that". Verbal instruction especially at the firs of the contest can clean it up without having to call foul after foul.

But if he continues, then call the foul, but I wouldn't call it intentional.

Its probably a bad habit, we used to be taught to hold the players jersey so you know when he's moving. I didn't foul him, just let me know what he was doing.

Thanks
David

If the jersey was never pulled away from the body, I would certainly not have an intentional foul; and maybe not a foul at all. Hard to say without seeing it.

But I have called an intentional foul when a defensive player held the jersey of his opponent, preventing him from cutting to the strong side of the court. The defender wasn't even trying to move. He just stood on the block and held the other guy's shirt. It was almost comical as the offensive player tried to make his cut and just got pulled back. Almost.

Re: Re: Re: Should a T been called on Team B?
 

I counted. But I think there must have been someone standing talking to a coach, who then sat down. It was right after a time out. And I thought I saw five. But I'm willing to take the blame. it sure wasn't the best game I've ever had!

Intentional foul
 

When you mention intentional fouls, you guys always talk about the break away layup or the end of the game situation. You can have an intentional foul at anytime. Retaliation can come when you least expect it- if you haven't been focused on what was going on out there- you might not see it coming. The elbow in the side made to look like it was in the flow of play or the shove that indicates that someone has no love for his fellow player. These are intentional and must be called or you will end up in a place where your mother told you NEVER to go. If you should be so unfortunate to end up in NEVERLAND, do not ever put your arm around a player in an attempt to calm them down;or, even touch them in any fashion. You just may end up like MJ (and I don't mean Jordan). The bottom line is if you see an intentional foul in the beginning, middle or end- CALL IT. Let your whistle do the talking!

Advice to newcomers: really try hard to focus on the court and only the court. I will never forget the first game I ever did! I heard someone in the stands yell, "A gorilla could have made that call." I looked over to the stands and saw a 400 pound gorilla standing up looking at me.

Re: Intentional foul
 

If I miss an intentional foul, I'm going to end up in my dad's workshop? ;)

And the benches. And the game clock. And the table. Not trying to poke fun, Willie. But there's a lot more going on than the 10 players on the court. I understand that it's tough enough for new officials to focus on the players, but they also need to be aware that any one of the other things I mentioned can put their whole game into the toilet. Have to stay on top of all of it, as much as possible.

I agree 110% with Mark! Players, by their actions, determine the game.