Would you call a foul?

[Paul LeBoutillier]

Hey Everyone, I have one for your collective input:

One of the things we've learned about illegal screens is that contact is a must. However, in the Points of Emphasis under Screening it says:

#2. "When a screen is blind, or a rear screen, it is only legal when the screened player is allowed a normal step backward."

Okay, so you're watching as A2 sets a blind screen BEHIND B2. He scoots SO close that there's NO WAY B2 could take ANY kind of a step backward without causing contact, but B1 steps FORWARD and avoids contact with A2.

Here's my question. Since the description above in the PoE suggests that this close-proximity screen is ILLEGAL, do you call the foul WITHOUT contact?

[Grail]

No contact, no foul. The description describes where one must setup for the screen to be legal. If B backs into the "blind" screen you've got a foul. If B goes forward and thus avoids contact I've got nothing.

The close proximity is only cause for a foul if there is contact. You can't have a personal foul without contact.

For example, (you see this alot in girls games) A2 trys to set a screen on A1's defender B1. B1 doesn't make contact and A2 continues to move to be in B1's way. There is no foul here because there was never any contact made. If B1 would initiate contact as A2 is moving there would most likely be a foul on A2.

Hope this helps.

[pistol]

No contact ,no foul.

Don't go looking for ways to interfere in the game the game. The best calls are often the "no calls".

One of the best officials I ever new told us in a clinic I once attended -" your job is to ref the game not interfere in it"

He was probably the most respected IAABO clinician of all time-Dr. Phil Fox

[CYO Butch]

I don't think it would even qualify as a screen if there is no contact. Ergo, it could not be an illegal one.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by CYO Butch
Scorer's Instructions say player cannot re-enter Andy, AMEN!

What was the player doing inside Andy in the first place?!?!

[Gimlet25id]

I would have to think if no contact was made that there should never be a whistle.

Contact doesn't always mean we have to call a foul. The question we have to answer in our mind, did the illegel screen affect the outcome of the play? If the ball is on the opposite side and contact was made if it didn't affect the play either for the offense or for the defense I say PLAY ON!

[Larks]

I got nothin!

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Gimlet25id
I would have to think if no contact was made that there should never be a whistle.

Contact doesn't always mean we have to call a foul. The question we have to answer in our mind, did the illegel screen affect the outcome of the play? If the ball is on the opposite side and contact was made if it didn't affect the play either for the offense or for the defense I say PLAY ON!

Flex offense, most screens are away from the ball, with passes hitting a cutter from the back side. If you are calling it this way, you better be sure you know what's happening when you ignore a call. At the HS level, when you see a screen it's usually part of a set offense, which means it was set with the purpose of gaining an advantage. That's why we draw these things up. If that advantage is gained through illegal contact, you have a foul.

Having said that, the standard for off-ball contact is never as strict as that governing on ball contact. Be consistent no matter how you call it.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

What was the player doing inside Andy in the first place?!?!

You've got nerve, Chuck. I wasn't going to touch this one with the proverbial 10-foot-pole...

[Gimlet25id]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Flex offense, most screens are away from the ball, with passes hitting a cutter from the back side. If you are calling it this way, you better be sure you know what's happening when you ignore a call. At the HS level, when you see a screen it's usually part of a set offense, which means it was set with the purpose of gaining an advantage. That's why we draw these things up. If that advantage is gained through illegal contact, you have a foul.

Having said that, the standard for off-ball contact is never as strict as that governing on ball contact. Be consistent no matter how you call it.

I agree that you would have to be able to know the offensive sets.

Question? What if you were running the flex and the ball is on the strong side, as the ball is reversed to the weak side A1 sets a down screen on B2 and bumps him away from A2 rubbing off of A1's screen. A1 flashs middle but doesn't recieve the pass. Lead watches entire play thats starts from his primary running towards C's primary. As a coach would you want that contact called or would you rather have the game play on?

[Hawks Coach]

I think your example is exactly why this is so difficult, and why off-ball is treated differently than on-ball. In your situation, you also have to consider how long you can reasonably hold your whistle. Down screen low in the short corner area, then a flash to the paint, then wait to see if he gets ball and a whistle if he does? That's pretty late on an illegal screen whistle.

If it's early and the screener is really pushing limits, you might want to get the call in regardless to make it clear that you aren't going to watch that all night. In the 4th quarter, it should be clear that you need to call it.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
[BHaving said that, the standard for off-ball contact is never as strict as that governing on ball contact. Be consistent no matter how you call it. [/B]

Coach, IMHO you have it backwards.
Off ball:
illegal screen (contact) - whistle
dislodging - whistle
holding - whistle

and on and on

On ball:
hand check - did it impede progress? yes - whistle no - the man is beat and play on.
bump - did it impede progress?

On ball is governed by advatage/disadvatage or the consequences of the ball. Off ball contact which is illegal should be called immediately as soon as it puts a team, not a player, at a disadvantage.

[Hawks Coach]

I think that a bump off-ball is ignored much more than the same bump on-ball, in my experience. There is a lot more contact off-ball than on-ball, and very little of it is called. Most of it is technically illegal (e.g., screener not legally set, moves during screen slightly), but the standard for advantage - disadvantage off-ball is usually higher. I frequently see screeners move through the players they screen, at all levels, with no call. I'm not saying they are plowing someone over, but there is clear displacement. That same displacement by a defender against the ball would almost always merit a whistle. Refs usually look for more to happen off-ball before they call it.

That said, on-ball you may hold your whistle longer, because off-ball you need to make a quick judgment as to whether or not the advantage gained is such that you need to make a call. That was the point of my previous post. You can't wait til the pass is made to the screener who came off an illegal screen before calling that illegal screen. On-ball, you can hold the whistle a little longer to see if the contact impacted play.

[Gimlet25id]

I'm not saying to wait seconds and come back and get a call. The play I posted would happen fast. Especially in a flex offense. Advantage/Disadvantage applies to the whole game not just on ball or off ball but both sides of the play.

The point I'm trying to make is that to often we as officials are to literal in out interpetation of the rule. The question is what was the intent of the rule in the first place?

Why stop play if the contact, unless excessive, had no affect on the play. Shouldn't we be trying to see the whole play before the whiste. Primary & secondary defenders, the next pass, strong side, weak side.

Obviously if displacement happens POE dictates to call the foul. Hawkscoach brings a good point in getting it early so as not to have to handle later. We are talking bumps which is illegal contact but not necessarily displacement.

The game in its original form dictated that when a foul occured the other team automatically recieved 2 points. There wasn't any foul shots taken. This kept the game moving.

This discussion is good. Sometimes we need to know WHY we are making a call instead of, CONTACT WHISTLE, and then get into the thought process. I don't think that was the original intent of the rules.