Judge does the wrong thing!

[Adam]

The problem is that, for example in basketball, all players who engage are penalized, whether they are fighting or "peacemaking." Leaving the bench is in itself reason for ejection and punishment. This strikes me as similar reasoning.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
The problem is that, for example in basketball, all players who engage are penalized, whether they are fighting or "peacemaking." Leaving the bench is in itself reason for ejection and punishment. This strikes me as similar reasoning.

That would be true if it happened during the game...this didn't happen during the game...and according to the account, only a handful of players actually fought...so you punish the entire team for the actions of a handful of jackasses?? I really disagree with that...

[Adam]

The question is how conclusive was the video tape regarding who was fighting and who was peacemaking? If it's difficult to tell, then you must either make arbitrary decisions on shaky evidence or punish everyone.

[Nevadaref]

Just to update the situation, Cheyenne won the game last night (Cheyenne def. Centennial, 28-6) that the TRO allowed them to play. They now advance to the regional final.
The NIAA has appealed the TRO and if they eventually win, all wins, titles, etc. will be stripped from this team.
Of course, I wonder what compensation would be owed to the teams they defeat, such as Centennial, before this legal issue is finally decided. Can they sue for damages because they didn't make the regional final and their players were not seen by the college scouts attending that game?
It is a mess.

PS The AP wrote a very matter of fact article that was printed in the Reno paper regarding the TRO being granted. This article was quite objective and was nothing like the one in the Vegas paper. If I can find an on-line copy, I'll post it. I'm just not going to type it all in.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
The question is how conclusive was the video tape regarding who was fighting and who was peacemaking? If it's difficult to tell, then you must either make arbitrary decisions on shaky evidence or punish everyone.

Or punish the ones that you KNOW were fighting, and not punish everyone arbitrarily at all...if you miss some of the fighters then you miss some, but you don't punish kids who weren't part of it...

[BayStateRef]

For those who thought the reporter in Las Vegas was too one-sided in favor of the fighting football team, the same paper's columnist was just as strident in supporting the Nevada high school sports association. Excerpts follow, with llinks to the full story.:

Columnist Ron Kantowski: Hughes, NIAA make the right call -- again
November 14, 2003
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...515860110.html

"Anytime you take a kid out of a playoff situation, it's very difficult," Hughes said Thursday after announcing the sanctions. "It's one of those unfortunate things, but you can't turn your head. Quite frankly, it puts a little pit in your stomach. It's not a fun thing and I empathize with the (innocent) kids."
At least he got it right. No further review is necessary, as far as I'm concerned.
Are innocent kids suffering because a handful (or two) of their peers couldn't control their emotions? No question. But coaches harp about football being a team game. You win as a team, you lose as a team.
Why should being penalized be any different?

Columnist Ron Kantowski: Adults become focus of a kids' game
November 18, 2003
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...515879344.html
Owing to two football teams who decided to shake hands with left hooks, coaches and administrators who failed to control and/or discipline the wanna-be pugilists, a sanctioning body that has been put in the position of ruling with a heavier right hand than George Foreman, parents who can't leave bad enough alone, a judge who wants to be a sports commissioner, an attorney who fancies reading his name in the newspaper and a local media that has turned this story into front page news, the Southern Nevada high school football playoffs have been transformed into a circus.
This just in: Barnum & Bailey 7, Human Drama of Athletic Competition 0.
I also wonder what's going to happen the next time it is learned after that fact that a school had used an ineligible player and Hughes rules a forfeit, a fairly common penalty for such a transgression.
When that occurs, the whole team suffers because of one individual. Sound familiar?
But just when you think you've had enough, something happens to restore your faith in the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat and yes, the human drama of athletic competition. For me, that was Monday's game.
Under difficult circumstances, both teams played hard and by the rules. Cheyenne, the better team, won. Nobody from Centennial tried to start a fight afterward.
And when the referees whistled No. 64 for encroachment, his teammates accepted the 5-yard penalty, even though it wasn't their fault.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

To me, it's a parenting issue. The mother is so worried about her little boopsie getting his college scholarship that she doesn't see the person he's becoming...

I dunno....if it's a 4 year free ride then we are talking about some serious money here, and could possibly be a deal breaker for this kid's ability to get into college. And at that age he already is the kid he's becoming if you ask me. On the other hand, if the kid was really counting on the performance of his final game to get an offer then I suspect he hasn't turned many heads anyway...or maybe it's the mom's lawyer who's building this up. But it doesn't make sense to me for the kid's mom to take this all with just a shrug - in other words I think she did the right thing by her kid.

That's life.

Having said that, I believe the judge was completely wrong issuing the restrainng order and letting the team play without penalty. Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans. And this *team* - not just the one kid who happened to be the star - was about to get dealt a healthy dose of life that would have served as a deterrent to others for years to come. And that is what is wrong with this picture IMO.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BayStateRef
For those who thought the reporter in Las Vegas was too one-sided in favor of the fighting football team, the same paper's columnist was just as strident in supporting the Nevada high school sports association. Excerpts follow, with llinks to the full story.:

Columnist Ron Kantowski: Hughes, NIAA make the right call -- again
November 14, 2003
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...515860110.html

"Anytime you take a kid out of a playoff situation, it's very difficult," Hughes said Thursday after announcing the sanctions. "It's one of those unfortunate things, but you can't turn your head. Quite frankly, it puts a little pit in your stomach. It's not a fun thing and I empathize with the (innocent) kids."
At least he got it right. No further review is necessary, as far as I'm concerned.
Are innocent kids suffering because a handful (or two) of their peers couldn't control their emotions? No question. But coaches harp about football being a team game. You win as a team, you lose as a team.
Why should being penalized be any different?

Columnist Ron Kantowski: Adults become focus of a kids' game
November 18, 2003
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/st...515879344.html
Owing to two football teams who decided to shake hands with left hooks, coaches and administrators who failed to control and/or discipline the wanna-be pugilists, a sanctioning body that has been put in the position of ruling with a heavier right hand than George Foreman, parents who can't leave bad enough alone, a judge who wants to be a sports commissioner, an attorney who fancies reading his name in the newspaper and a local media that has turned this story into front page news, the Southern Nevada high school football playoffs have been transformed into a circus.
This just in: Barnum & Bailey 7, Human Drama of Athletic Competition 0.
I also wonder what's going to happen the next time it is learned after that fact that a school had used an ineligible player and Hughes rules a forfeit, a fairly common penalty for such a transgression.
When that occurs, the whole team suffers because of one individual. Sound familiar?
But just when you think you've had enough, something happens to restore your faith in the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat and yes, the human drama of athletic competition. For me, that was Monday's game.
Under difficult circumstances, both teams played hard and by the rules. Cheyenne, the better team, won. Nobody from Centennial tried to start a fight afterward.
And when the referees whistled No. 64 for encroachment, his teammates accepted the 5-yard penalty, even though it wasn't their fault.

Thanks for the link! Also notice that it was a different reporter! It is too bad that Hughes was overruled and the team was allowed to play and win.

[Rich]

I'm just catching up, but I can't believe nobody has jumped on the notion of officials supervising the handshakes.

Never, never, never. I joke with my partner in basketball that I'll be in the lockerroom before the final horn is done sounding. Of course I'm exaggerating. Slightly.

That said, there ARE baseball umpires who will watch the handshake, but I am certainly not one of them. Most top umpires are not either. Me? I toss the balls to one of the kids as I'm walking off the field. In football, we trot to the lockerroom after the final play.

For God's sake, there are ADULTS there. If they can't control themselves and their teams AFTER THE GAME ENDS, it certainly isn't my problem. And frankly, I don't care what happens after the game and my jurisdiction ends. At that point, they can call the cops.

[tomegun]

I don't do football but I do know the Las Vegas high school sports landscape firsthand. I know the athletic directors for both schools and I know some of the players on both teams.
I think that if the team had accepted the suspension and the mother didn't do anything it could have left a bad taste in the recruiter's mouth and she couldn't have that. Would you want to recruit the next problem child into your program? I don't think so. He could be the next "Keyshawn Dillon" with guns and bombs in his dorm room with a porno buisiness on the side. I just threw that in for humor but we cannot assume these kids will follow the straight and narrow anymore. She threatened he played and now it could "appear" that he wasn't wrong afterall. See how that could be a difference?
I lived there and I'm familiar with both schools so as far as the "Hug" I say Bull&*(*! I have done many games in Vegas and something is said or done between players that I have to nip in the bud. They always say "but that's my boy", "we know each other" or "he's my cousin." Without taking care of this then things can get out of hand. When I first read the post I wasn't surprised by the fight. I thought I had missed something from the preseason because I know this didn't happen last year.
I have much more I could say but I will stop here. Don't be surprised about what happens in Las Vegas.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I dunno....if it's a 4 year free ride then we are talking about some serious money here, and could possibly be a deal breaker for this kid's ability to get into college. And at that age he already is the kid he's becoming if you ask me. On the other hand, if the kid was really counting on the performance of his final game to get an offer then I suspect he hasn't turned many heads anyway...or maybe it's the mom's lawyer who's building this up. But it doesn't make sense to me for the kid's mom to take this all with just a shrug - in other words I think she did the right thing by her kid.

I suppose I might agree with you, depending on how she's been handling other situations which we haven't heard about. If he's been a basically good kid, and the mom knows that the opponent that Peeples hugged was an old friend... yea, I could see the mom's response being reasonable. I was reading into the situation a history of "lil boopsie" screwing up, and mom coming to his rescue again and again. The sentences just sound like those types of sentences. And I think Peeples should learn some humility -- it's understandable how the opponent might feel a little taunted. Would Peeples have been as quick to hug his friend if Peeples had just lost by 5 instead of winning?

It does involve big money, you're right, but that shouldn't make or break the deal. If the kids on the team were fighting, they were fighting.

And you are definitely right about his college chances, if he hasn't been spotted by now...