Can't find this anywhere in the Rules or Case book.

What's the question? Maybe we can help.

Substitution
 

T or F - It is permissable to withdraw a player before the clock properly starts following his or her substitution into the game.

Re: Substitution
 

The answer is true. The only way the question would be false is if they added that the player was being withdrawn for the player he originally substituted for.

Re: Re: Substitution
 

The answer is true. The only way the question would be false is if they added that the player was being withdrawn for the player he originally substituted for...
[/QUOTE]

or, for ANY ineligible sub.

I know it is true for all codes but can only find the NCAA reference 3-4-12 "A player who legally enters the game during a dead ball may leave the game during that same dead-ball period without penalty."

Thanks. I thought it was True, but still can't find a reference.

So... on a throw in, before the ball is in play, a coach can substitute A6 for A1, then A7 for A6, then A8 for A7, etc.

A pretty good delay tactic if you need it.

Remember, there's not a rule reference for every conceivable play. We are told what is illegal regarding substitions in the rule book and this situation is not one of them.

Not really, a referee should simply administer the throw in and say the sub wasn't at the table if he/she saw this tactic being used.

Re: Substitution
 

See NFHS casebook play 3.3.3SitA. Substitution is legal.

So... on a throw in, before the ball is in play, a coach can substitute A6 for A1, then A7 for A6, then A8 for A7, etc.

[/QUOTE]

Remember, once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in, the ball is LIVE, and the referee should not beckon a sub in at this time.

Thanks for all the help and clarification.

Thin ice? Or solid ground? You decide.
 

The only related rule I could find states that a player that has been substituted for may not return to the game as a substitute until the clock has run. So...the rulebook does cover the subject of substitution, and it does not prohibit this case. I conclude legal, ergo the answer is True.

Re: Thin ice? Or solid ground? You decide.
 

BITS, as I stated above, the NFHS reference is casebook play 3.3.3SitA. That gives you the answer.

Here's Case Book 3.3.3 Situation A:
 

A1 is injured during a play in which A1 has been fouled. As a result, A1 cannot attempt the free throw awarded to him/her. Substitute A6 replaces A1 and attempts the free throw which is successful. Substitute A7 replaces A6 before the clock starts. RULING: the subtitution is legal. (8-2)

I'm not sure that this really addresses Q65, but it's as close as the rule book ever gets.

The situation Q65 is asking about, in my mind is: A6 replaces A1 at a dead ball. Before the clock starts properly, the coach changes his/her mind and wants to substitute A7 for A6. Do you allow the substitution?

I say yes.

Re: Here's Case Book 3.3.3 Situation A:
 

I say you're wrong in the specific case that you quoted above. Changing a substitute after they've enter the game is only allowed in 2 specific cases, and they're both covered in the rulebook. Those cases are an injured player(R8-2), and free throws for a technical foul(R8-3).The rules don't allow any other exceptions than those two,especially a coach changing his mind after a substitute has entered.

The answer to Q65's question is true because of the 2 specific cases outlined in 8-2 and 8-3.

JR the exceptions you are referring to are for who may shoot the FT's not for substitutions in general.
if an eligible subsitute reports he/she can enter when opportunity is there. to be ineligible you must be
1. disqualified
2. directed to leave the game for blood or injury
and try to reenter before the clock has started
3. substituted for and try to reenter before the clock has started.
4. if the subsitutes equipment or apparel is listed in 3-5
5. was unconcious without medical approval.

No, I am telling you about substitutions in general. If a player is legally substituted into a game, that player must stay in the game until the clock has run and the next legal substitution opportunity then occurs. That's NFHS rule 3-3-4. There are 2 exceptions ONLY allowed to rule 3-3-4. As outlined in Rules 8-2 and 8-3, they are an injured foul shooter and players coming in to shoot a technical foul shot. Casebook plays 3.3.3SitA and 8.2SIT further explains and confirms these two exceptions.

The above exceptions are what makes the answer to plmartin18's original qustion "true". Eddie376's scenario,where a coach wants to sub again before the clock starts for a player who had just come in is NOT one of the 2 exceptions, so it is illegal under R3-3-4.

Make sense now?

That is not what 3-3-4 says.
a player (this is the person leaving the game)who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not reenter
before the next opportunity to susbstitute after the clock has started properly folowing his or her replacement.
it says nothing about the sub having to stay in the game until the clock starts.

8-2 allows for another team member(bench personnel to unless none available) to shoot the FT when to player
awarded the FT cannot due to injury or DQ.

3.3.3a confims that A6 may shoot the FT per 8-2
but it also confirms that A6 the sub maybe sub'd for at anytime the opportunity for subing is available.

Re: Re: Here's Case Book 3.3.3 Situation A:
 

I can't believe I've managed to avoid this situation! Jurassic, have you actually been faced with this?? Your commentary seems correct . . . has anybody had to adjudicate this on the spot?

Umm, I don't think so, JR. You've got the NBA rule stuck in your head or something. In the NBA, a player subbed into the game must stay in for a tick of the clock. In HS and NCAA, a player subbed out must stay out of the game for a tick of the clock. FED 3-3-4 discusses a player who is subbed OUT of the game; not into the game.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 8th, 2003 at 05:13 PM]

Umm, I don't think so, JR. You've got the NBA rule stuck in your head or something. In the NBA, a player subbed into the game must stay in for a tick of the clock. In HS and NCAA, a player subbed out must stay out of the game for a tick of the clock. FED 3-3-4 discusses a player who is subbed OUT of the game; not into the game.

[/B][/QUOTE]Yeah,I think you're right. I got carried away on that one- even though I didn't really have to get into that part because it wasn't even relevant to the original question. I stand by the rest of it, though. The answer to Plmartin18's original question is still "true", partially because of the 2 exceptions noted.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 8th, 2003 at 05:55 PM]

Re: Here's Case Book 3.3.3 Situation A:
 

No, A7 now replaces A6. A1 is already out of the game.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 19th, 2003 at 03:46 PM]

Damn! Chuck and Paul got him before I could get to him! :D

In this case, I don't see how A7 could have properly reported to the scorer and been in position BEFORE the dead ball. If he had been, then you would have beckoned him in at the same time as A6. Therefore, I'm not letting him in the game to replace A6.

Where is the rule that a sub must have reported before the ball becomes dead?

A6 is at table to replace A1 when ball becomes dead. A6 is beckoned into game. Team B calls time out. Before the warning horn A7 reports to replace A6. Does this senerio satisfy you Nevada?

Yes. In this senario, A7 may enter and A6 may legally leave.

Yikes!
 

Well, I certainly didn't expect this much debate!

After reading all posts, and talking about it with other refs, I believe Q65 is true.

I took the NFHS test online and missed one. I'm not sure which one yet, but it had better not be Q65!

Scorer's Instructions say player cannot re-enter Andy, AMEN!
 

Willie Price's thread on the score book took me back to the Instructions and Duties for the Scorer of Basketball Games. The part that seems to be relevant to this thread says under Substitutions: "A player who has been withdrawn may not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following the player’s replacement."
How does that affect this discussion?

Re: Scorer's Instructions say player cannot re-enterAndy, AMEN!
 

Not at all.

The question deals with an ENTERING player -- can s/he be removed before the clock starts (YES); the statement, also in the rule book, delas with tht REMOVED player -- can s/he reenter before the clock starts (NO).