I just got my season started last week already! Of course we are going to have problems working the kinks out. We had a play and me being the rookie just put my 2 cents in and went on, but I don't think we got it right. The play:

Shot clock winding down, ball goes out of bounds, whistle just before the horn about as close as can get. We get together, I'm thinking probably put 1 tick on the shot. Nope the other 2 both disagreed and said violation. I know it wasn't a full second, but don't we have to give the ball back with no violation. Some veteran input please.

You've got to allow for "lag time." This is the second it takes for the timer to stop the clock once he hears the whistle/sees official's arm go up. This is normal and time is NOT put back on the clock.

And to be clear, this means that if A has ball and B deflects OOB, you have whistle then horn (horn w/i a second), ball is now going to B due to shot clock violation.

Zebra, what set of rules are you using?

No. NFHS does not have a shot clock. :)

All official, unmodified, rule sets that I know of that have a shot clock, do not have "lag time".

In the NCAA or NBA, the clock will be reset to whatever time was on the clock at the time of the whistle. So you can't have this scenario. The only similar scenario is the end of quarter but in this case, it's only an expiration of time where the next possession is by the arrow and not for a violation.

These are the quandries that can be had by modifying part of the rules.

Camron
You are right about NBa and NCAA - but they have no lag time any time. As I understand lag time in NFHS, if you choose to use a shot clock, lag time would apply to that as well. You have no direct knowledge with which to reset the shot clock, and you have no reason to do so if you allow lag time to stop a clock - no reason a shot clock should be ay different.

I agree, this is a quandary established by modifying part of the rules!

I don't think lag time can apply, due to the fact that the lag time rule in the NF book covers only the game clock.

For those states that use a shot clock with NFHS rules, I think that 5-6-2 should be modified to cover this play. It is certainly the most appropriate rule.

This is one situation in which I think Rule 2-3 really does come into play. The shot clock is clearly NOT covered by the FED rules. Therefore, the referee should make a ruling. In my opinion, if you're sure the whistle blew before the horn, then the best solution is to use the NCAA rule (since the shot clock is governed by NCAA rules) and put the time back on the shot clock.

NCAA rules. Just need some help on this one. Glad this came up early in the season! Thanks for all of the replies.

Chuck....?
 

Chuck I follow what you are saying, but unless the officials have definite knowledge of the timing error, they cannot put time back on the clock. In this instance, there could be anywhere from .1 seconds to a full second. Depending on the remaining time, the NCAA rules may or may not allow time for a shot to be taken, and I haven't seen a shot clock yet that allows you to put tenths of a second up. My call would be shot clock violation and away we go.

Re: Chuck....?
 

I've never seen a shot clock with tenths of seconds either, so if the sitch happened tweetbuuuzzz on the OOB then I'm going to have to put 1 second back on.

If a clock does NOT show tenths then the rules don't allow us to decide whether a shot is physically impossible to be taken before the fact as does the .3 second rule. You need to judge it as it happens.

Re: Chuck....?
 

I understand exactly what you're saying, but if you know that the whistle sounded before the horn, then you know that there was no shot clock violation. Therefore the shot clock must have more than zero seconds on it. Since we can't put less than a second on it, and it has to be more than zero, I'd put a second on it.

I'm not going to enforce a shot clock violation when I know that there was not one. Just my opinion.

Re: Re: Chuck....?
 

Man, I just hate it when some loooh-zah who says "Offense" on a team control foul agrees with me.

:p

It seems to me a far greater penalty to not let me attempt a last minute shot when the horn goes after the whistle but within one second. End of the game, down by one, and the defense tips it OOB with .5 on the clock, that's a legitimate scoring opportunity and chance to win the game that I lose out on by NF rules if horn goes after whistle. Why should a simple shot clock violation be any different? In both cases, we have knowledge that whistle came before the horn, but NF allows lag time on the game clock. parts is parts, and clocks is clocks :)

We can't go to replay like NBA and NCAA, we have no knowledge on which to work, so how can you reset the shot clock? Keep it simple seems to be the NF rule for timing, so when shot clock is used, I say follow that guideline.

And that's why I think it should be treated under 5-6-2.

Two things here, Coach. First, we can add time when we have definite knowledge of the time that elapsed. I know that at least .1 seconds elapsed. Therefore, I can put that time back on the clock. Since I'm physically unable to put .1 on the shot clock, the best I can do is to put 1 second on the clock. Therefore, one second is going back up on the clock.

Secondly, as I said before, anything having to do with the shot clock is NOT covered by FED rules. Therefore, I can legitimately use 2-3 to do the right thing. The right thing here is NOT to penalize a violation that didn't occur.

Chuck
This still doesn't answer why NF would allow you to call a game over when you you have direct knowledge that your whistle came before the horn. The game is over because of a lag time rule only. I can't understand why you would not apply that same rule to a middle of the game violation. The end of game can have much greater impact than a mid-game violation call.

And the reasoning behind lag time works for both situations - you don't want to try to micromanage the clock in every HS and MS gym in the country, just fix major timing blunders. It holds true for shot clock (when used) and for game clock.

Problem is states that use the shot clock need to have a set of rules that deal with it - there are many issues beyond lag time that need to be considered when a shot clock is used- and most, if not all use the ncaa shot clock rules & interps. And ncaa does not recognize lag time. Now you're wondering why I can't use a monitor to fix a shot clock error at the end of a period. You can't do that at a fed game because the fed rules ban the use of replay equipment, period. If the fed decides to include an option for shot clock then they could write the rules governing the fed shot clock any way they like. But so far they haven't.

Because you're talking about a game clock situation, and I'm talking about a shot clock situation. The FED makes no provision whatsoever for dealing with the shot clock. Therefore, I would do what the NCAA does, since the NCAA does have shot clock rules. Again, just my opinion.

Assuming there's no monitor OR this wasn't near the end of a half, reference, please.

And, comment on why 2-12.10, AR 28 and 5-7.2b and 5-7.2c might not also apply to the shotclock.

(For those w/o NCAA books: AR 28 deals with lag time, although it's not as clear as the FED case; 5-7.2 states that if a foul / violation / held ball occur so near the end of the playing time, the period ends with the foul / violation / held ball)

My reference here is J.B. Caldwell of the SEC, as propounded to me at NunnBetter. :)

Give me some time to comb the book, and I'll see if I can back it up.

Chuck,
Since you admit that Fed rules do not say anything at all about a shot clock, how can you point to 5-10-1 to justify putting that one second back on the shot clock? You are going to have to work completely on the grounds of 2-3 here.
As for my 2-3 decision, I have to agree with Hawks Coach. Violation.

For the record, the state of California uses a shot clock for both boys and girls. I have a copy of the rules modifications for CA and they do not address these kind timing issues with the shot clock at all! Very sloppy IMO.

Shot clock winding down, ball goes out of bounds, whistle just before the horn about as close as can get. We get together, I'm thinking probably put 1 tick on the shot. Nope the other 2 both disagreed and said violation. I know it wasn't a full second, but don't we have to give the ball back with no violation. Some veteran input please.

FIBA:
39.2.2 If the 24-second device signal sounds in error whilst a team hascontrol of the ball, the official shall stop the game immediately.
Possession of the ball and a new 24-second period shall be awarded to the team that previously had control of the ball when the device sounded.
All restrictions related to goal tending and interference with the ball shall apply.

NBA:

Rule 7 - Section II - Paragraph g. If a defensive player causes the ball to go out-of-bounds or causes the ball to enter the basket ring from below, the 24-second clock is stopped and the offensive team shall be awarded the ball. The offensive team shall have only the unexpired time remaining on the 24-second clock in which to attempt a field goal. If the 24-second clock reads 0, a 24-second violation has occurred, even though the horn may not have sounded.

You're right about relying on 2-3 exclusively. The reference to 5-10-1 is simply to make us feel better about doing it. We know that there are situations where it's ok to put time back on the clock. So you're not all that far out on a limb, by doing it in this situation. That's the only point.

Bobby, just FYI, NCAA and NF say you play to the horn, even if the clock (shot or game) shows 00:00.0

Mark,

I know that. NCAA, NF, and FIBA all go to the horn (NCAA/NF) or the "timekeeper's signal" (FIBA).

The horn has more to do with tradition. In the days before modern scoreboards with the clocks which would be in a 8-minute clock with hands instead of the digits, the horn was the determining factor. You also didn't have the clocks which ran in tenths used by FIBA which led to the NBA's 1989 rule change adopting the FIBA-style game clock. The NCAA mandated FIBA clocks in 2001.

Modern scoreboards have made the zeroes on the clock more prevalent, and even modern rulings on the clock are a byproduct of technology.

The NBA mandated the red light on the backboard in 1980, and NCAA Division I mandates it today. Today's NBA rule now states the red light is lit on the shot clock too.

FIBA's version is a quirky even though Hank Nichols is the FIBA rules secretary. On a whistle and then the 24-second signal sounding, it's a 24-second signal which sounds in error. That's a fresh 24.

If you are a local federation, I would say the best thing is to seriously use the NCAA, NBA, or FIBA rule and write it into the book. The FIBA's rule is the simplest.

Bobby, are you in FIBA's PR deartment or something? ;)

I think Bobby might BE FIBA's PR department :D

So, I have about 50-50 on this one. I couldn't find a definite answer in the NCAA book on this one. Maybe I over looked it. But I agree with everyone saying put 1 tick on the clock. How can you call violation when the full 35 hasn't ran out? That's exactly what the coach asked. My reply was "We're going to talk about it at half time. Glad this happened early in the season!" He said,"Doesn't really matter, we're getting pounded anyway." But that's beside the point. If this happens in a tight game down the stretch, I want to get it right. So far, until I find a definite answer, I'm going to put 1 tick back on the shot clock.