Player control

Danvrapp · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 10:41am

What's the logic behind not having an offended team shoot free throws for a player control foul? I was reviewing some old tests and can't seem to come up with an acceptable answer for myself!

Chin Ref · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 10:47am

I'd like to learn too. My guess would be they will be penalized for ball control lost and they should not be dbl penalized.

Hawks Coach · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 11:10am

I have never understood this, especially since fouls committed by the offense do not have one universal treatment under NF rules. I like the NCAA's "team control" foul, because it makes it clear that all fouls committed when your team has possession are turnovers, when committed during losse ball or against you when you are in possession, there is the potential for FTs. Seems like a fair division. Player control seems arbitrary to me.

rainmaker · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 11:39am

Someplace, I think in the Basketball Handbook that the NFHS puts out in years that they don't do the Official's Manual, there is a history of this.

Apparently, originally, every foul got a penalty of one free throw. It became quickly apparent that this was NOT the best penalty for fouls on the shot, so the two-free-throws penalty was established for those. Later, folks felt that if a team kept fouling a lot, the penalty should increase, so they added "the bonus" for the 7th foul and after. Then, people felt that there was too much time taken for free throws, and especially for free throws on offensive fouls -- everyone walks to the other end, etc. So they took away all free throws for offensve fouls, and any free throws on the first six defensive, non-shooting fouls. (That's why that second shot on the 7th foul is called "the bonus" which I never understood. Seemed to me that the first shot was also a bonus.) Finally, it seemed that again the penalties were un-fair with no free-throws for any offensive fouls, so they gave all those back, except for fouls by the ball-handler.

It intrigues me that the NCAA has the "team-control" foul thing now with no free-throws for offensive fouls -- seems like a step backwards in a way, but of course it's not. It's just the next circle in the spiral.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 12:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Chin Ref
I'd like to learn too. My guess would be they will be penalized for ball control lost and they should not be dbl penalized.

Chin Ref wins. If I remember right, that was the exact same rationale that was used when the PC foul was introduced.

Btw, to add slightly to Rainmaker's treatise, there was one more intermediate step on the "bonus". At one time, you shot 1 shot on the 5th. foul of every quarter. That was changed to the 1/1 on the 7th. foul in a half. At that time. T's weren't counted towards the extra shot or bonus either.

Kelvin green · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 06:48pm

I think the NCAA went to the "team control foul" just as the NBA uses an offensive foul. It is a quick penalty and gets the ball back in play faster. Here's my common sense. You just called offensive foul, now you have to march all the way to the other end of the floor and shoot... let's the coach complain a lot longer and slows down play. The NBA found this is a good rule. Personally I'd like to see NF get to it too.

Remember in the NBA offensive fouls do not count toward penalty situation either... (Not a team foul)

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 11:20pm

Prior to the 1977-78 season (plus or minus one school year) the NBCOFUSC used the team foul penalty that the NCAA now uses.

canuckrefguy · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 11:42pm

Padgett's gonna hate this, but I believe FIBA has always played it this way ("had it right" if you will).

IMHO, it's a great rule, both in the spirit of the game, and in making it easier to administer for the officials.

Dan_ref · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 30, 2003, 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Prior to the 1977-78 season (plus or minus one school year) the NBCOFUSC used the team foul penalty that the NCAA now uses.

Ahhhh...the good old NBCOFUSC...???

I know NBC is where Letterman got his start...as a former Trojan I know what USC is... OF kinda connects them....

BTW, not even google knows what nbcofusc is.

canuckrefguy · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 31, 2003, 12:26am

I did a yahoo search, but it led to a webpage that's not really appropriate for this board

Jurassic Referee · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 31, 2003, 01:19am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Prior to the 1977-78 season (plus or minus one school year) the NBCOFUSC used the team foul penalty that the NCAA now uses.

Ahhhh...the good old NBCOFUSC...???

Whatever it is, I'm gonna wire Mary Struckoff and get her to change it! I'm not putting up with this!

Does anyone else get that mental picture of MTD Sr. holding a Uzi, and saying "If you don't change that rule, I'm gonna....."? Shudder!

Dan_ref · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 31, 2003, 09:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Prior to the 1977-78 season (plus or minus one school year) the NBCOFUSC used the team foul penalty that the NCAA now uses.

Ahhhh...the good old NBCOFUSC...???

Whatever it is, I'm gonna wire Mary Struckoff and get her to change it! I'm not putting up with this!

Does anyone else get that mental picture of MTD Sr. holding a Uzi, and saying "If you don't change that rule, I'm gonna....."? Shudder!

Could it be....???!!!

ChuckElias · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 31, 2003, 09:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Does anyone else get that mental picture of MTD Sr. holding a Uzi, and saying "If you don't change that rule, I'm gonna....."? Shudder!

Nah, I think of Mark as Milton from the movie "Office Space". He's the guy who is always imposed on (they're always moving his office cubicle, or using it to store boxes). He constantly mutters little complaints -- "Well, ok, but you better move me back or I'll file a complaint"; "No! I won't have any space to work. . . well, ok, but it better be out by tomorrow" -- but goes along with it until he just snaps and sets the whole building on fire.