Mens Rec ball, 2 whistles.

A1 is outside the arc, but at about FT line extended, guarded by B1. They are on the left side of the court, just in front of Trail, who is watching intently. Lead is still "Cadillac", opposite side of the lane (hasn't crossed over).

A1 drives towards the baseline, then cuts in. B1 gets position on the block. Collision. Obvious charge. No call. Who should have taken that? Does Trail take it all the way to the hole, or does Lead pick that up?

i feel that if you have an obvious charge like you said, then the trail should come in with a hard whistle and make the call. i also believe that the lead should of picked that up upon the player cutting in the lane. i dont see a problem with 2 whistles on that type of obvious play. i would like to hear what others have to say about this, this is an excellent mechanics question.

T's call because it came out of his primary. If the L had something he should have blown once it was clear the T wasn't.

I'll agree with Dan.

If T wants it they should have first crack at it. If I'm at lead I'll give the T a chance to make if not then I'll get it.

Not a bad spot for a double whistle (just remember to hold your preliminary signals until you make eye contact and communicate with your partner) -- in this double whistle situation I will pass to the T to take the call to the table.

Two other points that I've picked up on through the years that kind of apply here -- 1. Anytime we have a player on the floor, let's know how they got there. 2. If we have a "crash" let's have a whistle. Both of these have been preached to me by my assignors and clinicians.

"Crossed over?" In two-whistle? Lead doesn't cross over in two-whistle, does he?

Adam

Sure does!
Take a look at diagram 10 on page 25 of the new Officials' manual.
Of course, your local area may frown upon this, but it is an accepted NFHS mechanic.

Lead should have closed down unless...
 

Unless there was some play that the lead needed to stay on top of on his right side opposite the play, he should have at least closed down when the players came to the original place at the free throw line extended at the arc. He would be in a better position to move over to get on ball, or at least be in a good position to see the crash and take the call.

This is lead's primary area (where the crash occurred) and probably had the most responsibility to make the call. However, if there were players on the right side of the lane that needed attention, the trail could have stayed with the ball and made the call.

I agree with the others that have posted that this is one place where two whistles would have been better than none and good communication with partners would keep both of you out of trouble.

This is something I haven't heard before and I am leaning toward disagreeing. Just because there is a "crash" or two players running into each other, or someone ends up on the floor, doesn't have to mean there is a foul. It sounds like they want a whistle no matter what when a player hits the floor. Are they urging you to call a foul instantly when there's hard contact or a player on the floor? I agree that we need to be aware of "crashes" and what happened, but I think everyone will agree that in two person mechanics you don't see nearly as much. I know I've had situations (espedcially in lower level games) where there's a "crash" and the crowd goes nuts for a foul call but if I didn't see it, or if a player is "flopping" I'll hold my whistle. I may be misuderstanding the advice so if I am, please set me straight.

Then you'd be disagreeing with the likes of Jim Bain, John Adams, Tony Stigiliano, and several other college assignors, evaluators, and officials.

I myself find it hard to have a whistle every time a player goes to the floor...whether I know how he got there or not. (I better know! ;)) It is something I'm trying to improve upon. I used to defend my no-call if neither player would gain an advantage by the crash...meaning, the defensive player wasn't quite set or the offensive player was out-of-control, etc. These calls are not always crystal clear. However, the more college camps I go to, the more I hear, "If a player goes to the floor and nothing good happens right away (i.e. a basket, quick turnover), then an official HAS to have a whistle."

All of the posts above have great points and are easlily defensible, and easy to agree with...the one point that hasn't been brought up... PRE GAME< PRE GAME, PRE GAME... In my pregame this situation is usually one of the first things discussed...As trail I tend to give it to the lead in a double whistle, and as the lead I want it...but the key is, since we do see different opinions, make sure that in pre game, you decide how it will be handled..cause un like a lot of situations that we discuss on this board, the ones that happen once a season, or even a lifetime, this one occurs almost nightly, or at least once every 2 or 3 games....

I understand the basic premise of the crash=whistle argument, but how does that mesh with the incidental contact provisions, specifically:

4-27 Incidental Contact:
ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 4 . . . A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact with the screener by stopping or going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled incidental contact, provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

10-6-3d
A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact by going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener and if the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact and moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

These provisions let you know that you can have strong crashing contact and not call a foul.

True, however my post was specifically referring to a drive to the basket.

I tend to agree with you, Hawks' Coach, but as someone explained to me this summer, these rules all apply pretty minutely when the ball isn't involved. If it's a train wreck and one of the "casualties" had the ball, there's GOT to be a whistle. Somebody fouled, period.

One thing I would like to add. In a 2-person game the trail has to be aggressive. The trail cannot, I repeat cannot, hang out around the division line and watch the action. These plays are tough for the lead. That is one reason there is a C in 3-person. As a matter of fact, I've heard it many times that for a crew to have a good game the C must be active and have a good game. Something like 65% of the calls should come from C. Well the same could be said for the T in a 2-person game. The first step in seeing plays like this is to be in position. The arc is a good starting point. I like to go deeper. If I get beat back down court I slow up around the free-throw line and work for a good angle.

I like to talk basketball because it gets the brain to thinking. As I typed I came up with the bottom line. Our starting position is just that, a starting position. Within reason, we have to get in the best position to get and angle and referee plays. Angles, angles, angles!

I'll add if you do pass on a crash on one end then you should be passing on a crash on the other end as well. And whatever you do DON'T have a whistle for something ticky-tack. Once things have "evened out" then you can regain control (can't wait to see if I get a reaction to that one ;) ).

Lots of very good posts in this thread.

There sure are. I totally agree with Dan's original comment. On a drive that starts in front of the T, the T has first crack at any contact during the drive. I would add that this is very hard to get used to, b/c that basically tells the T to make the call in the L's primary, which we usually try not to do.

I also totally agree with cmatthews. If you don't pregame this, it will almost certainly cause problems. Even if you do pregame it, you can get problems. I had a game last year in which we talked about this exact subject in pregame and in a big situation, my partner grabbed the call from across the lane. Big-time blarge potential, but I held my signal and we went with his call. But pregame it.

Nevadaref,
YU.P.
A few folks in our area have been working strong-side Lead for a few years.
I find it particularly useful during low Trail-side throw-ins. I'm strong-side and quite wide with focus on the paint.
When I turn to the ball at strong-side low, my partner will yield the ball and take the paint. And yeah, a skip pass makes you move. :)
mick

I have only heard this from NCAA women's officials. They have told me that their instructors/assigners have told them to call it this way.
I think that this is just silly and wrong.
This is what made up my mind to never even try to work women's college. Nothing demonstrates more clearly than this that they don't want to play basketball, but want to have a different version of the game with less contact for females.

I was encouraged to try going strong side at a camp I attended this summer. However, most of the specifics about the L going strong side were in the context of 3 whistle (we spent equal time doing 2 and 3 whistle, however most of us needed more instruction in 3 whistle, so that's where they did the most teaching).

So...would you mind giving a quick lesson in the details of the L going strong side in 2 whistle.

Just as an example, you mention turning to the ball and the T yielding and taking the paint. This begs all kinds of questions about how long you stay strong side and what you watch when you're there.

Perhaps if you, or anybody, would talk about:
* When do you come strong side?
* What are you watching for when you're there?
* How does being strong side change your area?
* When do you return to your original side?
* How does all of this affect the T?

If you undersand when to come over for 3 man then you have answers for the first 4 questions. When the L comes over I as T like to take a step or 2 around the arc to referee the paint & far side action, and to be prepared in case I'm asked to help on a far side OOB call. Not too hard really.

From the things stated earlier, I'm guessing that I don't completely understand number 2. When I come strong side, I'm almost entirely concerned with the post play. Which means that I'm positioned looking through the strong side post players looking back into the lane. But it sounds like there are times when you want to take the whole strong side, south of the free throw line?

Unlike three man where you initiate a rotation and everybody shifts primaries, in two man there is no rotation and my primary is still the lane and back on the weak side. Or at least it seems that way to me. What am I missing?

Pregame.

"OK..so when I come over to referee a matchup or the ball on the strong side I'm going to need your help covering the area I just left...you know, weak side lane, over the back rebound & putback fouls and especially my sideline. What I'll do as T is to take a step or 2 around the arc to help you out"

:)

Dan, I could be wrong (it has been known to happen), but it sounds to me like BITS is confused about whether he must pick up the ball when he comes ballside. He sounds unsure of what his responsibilities are when he comes ballside.

Is it ok to come strongside and ONLY officiate the low-post matchup? Or does he HAVE to assume on-ball responsibility, even if the ball is not in the post?

So could you adjust your pregame talk to address this? How will you and your partner know when the T should switch to off-ball coverage?

Seeing as BITS said ealier he's comfortabe with the rotation of 3 man but confused about applying 3 man rotation concepts to 2 man game...

"OK..so I understand you've worked some 3 man. The concept of when to come over is similar except there's a few details we need to iron out for the 2 man system: when I come over to referee a matchup or the ball on the strong side I'm going to need your help covering the area I just left...you know, weak side lane, over the back rebound & putback fouls and especially my sideline and 3 pt arc responsibility. When you come strong side L I'm assuming you're focussed on the action in and around that paint area regardless of where the ball is. What I'll do as T is to take a step or 2 around the arc and open up my view to help you out but I will still have my sideline, the 3 point arc on my side and of course all the action in that area. And one more thing: if you have a PC or illegal screen we need to have a strong THAT WAY!!!"

Bits,
Your responsiblities are very similar on the strong side (3-man terminology) as they are when the ball is on your side of the court.

However something I have been instructed for 3-man is that the official with the primary area where a play originates has that play all the way to the basket. I have also been instructed that 2-man is not this way - you have a primary area and should call all plays in your area. When the Lead moves to the same side of the court as the Trail, the Lead has expanded his area to include the area below the freethrow line extended to the 3-point line. This is now the Lead's primary area (see diagram 11 in your Officials Manual).

Getting back to the original play of this thread - drive from outside the 3-point line, dribbler cuts in, collision occurs (no location noted but discussion seems to indicate that most thought the location was in the key, in the primary area of the Lead.) Whose call is this. From my instruction for 2-man this should be the Lead's call...

However, I have just noted that in the Officials Manual for two officials in section #206, Pg 22, the same comment as for 3-man is made "When a player with the ball starts a drive to the basket from an official's primary area, that official has the player and the ball all the way to the basket."

Although this is not in gray text, IT IS A NEW STATEMENT from last year's 2001-2003 manual. ===> per this instruction, Trail's call.


I have worked with numerous officials that would not be upset in the least if you made a call that you thought needed to be made and that occurred out of your immediate primary area in the grey or joint responsibility areas. I have also worked with officials that would be absolutely furious if you made a call on a play that they had already passed on.

The only answer is pregame. Get that understanding and team spirit understood before the situation arises. Let your partner know that you will occasionally come across the key to help with ball side activities and who is going to call what while you are over there.

My 2 cents

Strong-side officiating is fun.
I learned strong-side from a NBA ref many years ago, long before it was popular in NF ball..

If you go across the paint and dont ref the ball, you'll miss a lot, you may need to go across to pick up big boys banging but where will the ball go most of the time?

Think about what looks better and easier to call a foul that is three feet in front of lead or 17 feet in front with players moving around. When lead picks up ball strong side, the trail assumes the same officiating as if lead were opposite lane and ball was there, Trail has the off ball stuff, perimeter and weakide rebounding. That stuff is easy for trail-- Heck if I have a partner like Drake and the ball is even slightly above FT line extended, if they are going 1 on 1, we'll talk and I'll take it...

You just have to communicate before the game and then non-verbally during the game so your partner knows when you have the ball down low...

I agree 100% if play starts in Trail's primary and goes to the basket it has to be Trail's call- the best thing lead is doing here is guessing---lead should be off ball and has not got a good picture there of what's going on

From what I have tried of strong side officiating, I agree. It's fun to get the right angle, see the whole play clearly, and make the right call! And it's easier.

Thanks for clarifying things with working the ball strong side. I will be trying this in my next assignment, and almost certainly from now on.

Just thinking aloud here: wouldn't the next logical extension be to introduce the notion of a rotation into 2 person? When the L comes strong side have the T actually rotate across? Doesn't the current arrangement actually put the T at a bit of a disadvantage since he is now further from the baseline part of his area? I know Dan emphasised the T shifting that direction a couple of steps. However, the ball is not in that part of the court, so maybe it's less of an issue?

Stay safe over there, Kelvin. Once you're safely home, perhaps I'll get to work a game or two with you.

Interesting point of view, Nevada...so basically you are saying that on a drive to the basket, CRASH, and both defender and shooter end up laying on the floor, one on top of the other, you will pass on any call because you want to have more contact in your games???? Because that's all that is being said bt the powers-that-be in NCAA women's...if there is a crash (notice it's not just that someone ends up on the floor, but a crash situation) then there should be a whistle...what exactly do you disagree with in that philosophy?? And why would that philosophy convinve you to not work any certain level of ball???

My understanding of the lead coming strong side...

In the mechanics book it shows the lead coming strong side to help keep on eye on post play.

If there was some action in the post that required lead to cross the key, then yes, the lead could have (and should have) made that call.

Otherwise, they way I read the situation, A1 drove from Trail's primary to the baseline and there was a crash at the block on that same side of the key (still Trail's primary) and it should be Trail's call all the way....if he doesn't get it and Lead sees the obvious foul, Lead can clean it up

Just a thought ....
We don't have to hold our whistles to see if our partner makes the call in our partner's primary. We make the call when we see it.
Then, via visual contact with our partner, if partner's fist is up let him have it; if partner has nothing, take the call. And, if partner's body language gives it up to us, we take the call.
So, we react naturally to what we see, but then we sort out the responsibility.
mick