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-   -   Team Control during a free throw? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/106326-team-control-during-free-throw.html)

Mike.Connors Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:20am
Team Control during a free throw?
 
A1 has the ball at disposal for a free throw. Before A1 begins his shooting motion and releases the ball on the try, A4 in a marked lane space fouls B4, also in a marked lane space. Does Team A have team control (for fouls) when the ball is at A1's disposal? Is the foul by A4 a team control foul and thus no free throws for B4 if Team B is in the bonus?

bob jenkins Thu Nov 14, 2024 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Connors (Post 1053179)
A1 has the ball at disposal for a free throw. Before A1 begins his shooting motion and releases the ball on the try, A4 in a marked lane space fouls B4, also in a marked lane space. Does Team A have team control (for fouls) when the ball is at A1's disposal? Is the foul by A4 a team control foul and thus no free throws for B4 if Team B is in the bonus?
Yes, it's a TC foul; no FTs. The current FT is cancelled, but will be retaken with no on on the lane line. If the last FT is good, B can run the endline. If it's unsuccessful, B gets a spot throw-in.

BillyMac Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:34pm
Canceled ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Connors (Post 1053179)
Before A1 begins his shooting motion and releases the ball on the try, A4 in a marked lane space fouls B4 ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1053183)
The current FT is cancelled, but will be retaken with no on on the lane line.
Wouldn't a whistle for the foul stop all action?

Or are we assuming that A1 continued his motion and released a dead ball?

Canceled, or just restarted?

bob jenkins Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1053183)
The current FT is cancelled, but will be retaken with no one on the lane line.
I stand by my full statement. (type edited)

Mike Goodwin Fri Nov 15, 2024 04:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Connors (Post 1053179)
A1 has the ball at disposal for a free throw. Before A1 begins his shooting motion and releases the ball on the try, A4 in a marked lane space fouls B4, also in a marked lane space. Does Team A have team control (for fouls) when the ball is at A1's disposal? Is the foul by A4 a team control foul and thus no free throws for B4 if Team B is in the bonus?
6.7 SITUATION B: After A1 starts the free-throwing motion, A2 commits a foul by pushing B1. RULING: If the foul occurred after the ball was in flight, the point counts if the throw was successful and no substitute throw is awarded if not successful. If A1 had not released the free-throw attempt before A2 fouled B1, the ball became dead when the team-control foul occurred and A1 is permitted an unhindered free throw. The foul by A2 results in the ball being awarded to Team B at the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where A2 fouled B1, unless the free-throw attempt by A1 is successful in which case B will throw-in from out of bounds any- where along the end line where the free throw was scored. (4-19-7, 4-19-9, 7-5-7)

4-19-7 referenced in the CB play is the Team Control Foul.

BillyMac Fri Nov 15, 2024 05:46pm
No Continuous Motion ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1053200)
If A1 had not released the free-throw attempt before A2 fouled B1, the ball became dead when the team-control foul occurred and A1 is permitted an unhindered free throw.
No continuous motion on a foul by the offense.

If A1 had not reacted to the whistle in a timely manner and had released the ball and "successfully" made a dead ball free throw, Team A head coach would be very upset when A1's "successful" throw was canceled and then A1 missed his unhindered free throw.

If Team A head coach is the visitor, he's probably headed out to sit on the cold dark bus in the cold dark parking lot.

Raymond Fri Nov 15, 2024 08:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1053201)
No continuous motion on a foul by the offense.



If A1 had not reacted to the whistle in a timely manner and had released the ball and "successfully" made a dead ball free throw, Team A head coach would be very upset when A1's "successful" throw was canceled and then A1 missed his unhindered free throw.



If Team A head coach is the visitor, he's probably headed out to sit on the cold dark bus in the cold dark parking lot.
A concise, 10-word explanation should prevent any need for a coach heading out to the bus.

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BillyMac Sat Nov 16, 2024 11:42am
Ejections ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1053202)
A concise, 10-word explanation should prevent any need for a coach heading out to the bus.
1) I was being facetious (they will be ejected to the locker room or another interior area), the important part of the post was how to handle the "successful" dead ball free throw.

2) If concise, ten word explanations prevented coach ejections, there would be far fewer coach ejections.

Back in the day, we had some local "old school" officials who would purposely get into arguments with coaches with the intent to eventually eject them, and then show up at the post game "watering holes" proudly wearing their "badge of honor" (and free adult beverages).

Those days, locally, for the most part, are long gone. Game management has become much more nuanced than in the past.

Connecticut coaches are still ejected (too often according to the CIAC, which recently increased the ejection penalty from one game to two games, multiple ejections can lead to a $250 school fine and the team being barred from CIAC postseason competition), almost always due to their own fault, very rarely due an overzealous official with ill intent.

Raymond Sat Nov 16, 2024 12:13pm
"2) If concise, ten word explanations prevented coach ejections, there would be far fewer coach ejections."

Yes, they do prevent technical fouls and ejections. The problem is a lot of officials don't know how to be direct and economical with their words and stay rooted in the rule book. And of course not knowing rules in the first place is part of the problem.

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BillyMac Sat Nov 16, 2024 12:36pm
Basketball Inflated Or Stuffed ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1053204)
The problem is a lot of officials don't know how to be direct and economical with their words and stay rooted in the rule book. And of course not knowing rules in the first place is part of the problem.
Agree. But, unfortunately, they're still out there officiating, and are sometimes our partners.

But even our best "game management" officials still have to occasionally eject some coaches.

Just like we have some poor "game management" officials, we also have some poor "game management" coaches that end up being ejected despite the best "game management" practices of the best "game management" officials.

Especially here in Connecticut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1053203)
Connecticut coaches are still ejected (too often according to the CIAC, which recently increased the ejection penalty from one game to two games, multiple ejections can lead to a $250 school fine and the team being barred from CIAC postseason competition) ...
I've been very lucky in my forty-plus year career.

I've never driven home from a game thinking, "I should have ejected that coach".

However, I will admit that I have driven home from a few games regretting not charging a few technical fouls.

Live and learn.

BillyMac Sat Nov 16, 2024 01:01pm
Working Officials ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1053205)
Just like we have some poor "game management" officials, we also have some poor "game management" coaches that end up being ejected despite the best "game management" practices of the best "game management" officials.
Officials have gotten better at "game management", so have many coaches.

Back when I was starting, not only were there "old school" officials who would purposely get into arguments with coaches with the intent to eventually eject them, but there were also many "old school"coaches who spent a considerable amount of time during the game, starting with the jump ball toss, "working" officials. They thought it was expected of them, as did their players, athletic directors, principals, parents, and fans, a normal part of their job.

But that's become, for the most part, thank God, a "lost art". Some, a few, still do it, but most interscholastic coaches spend most of their time during the game actually "coaching" their players, and only challenge officials for, what they consider to be, egregious calls.

Unfortunately, they often react to these egregious calls in egregious ways, resulting in technical fouls.

Instead of the "slow burn", "death by a thousand cuts", of "ancient times", it's become a "flash fire", "knife to the heart" situation.

BillyMac Sat Nov 16, 2024 01:46pm
Regrets, I've Had A Few (Frank Sinatra, 1969) ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1053205)
I will admit that I have driven home from a few games regretting not charging a few technical fouls. Live and learn.
From 2007:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1053205)
Girls varsity prep school tournament game. Visiting coach had been complaining about calls most of the first half. Nothing worth a technical foul, but just a constant "nag". Just before halftime a visiting player is fouled, she falls to the floor, injured and crying, certainly enough to beckon the coach onto the court. He comes onto the court with his trainer. The trainer tends to the injured player. The coach "tends to us" and takes this opportunity to complain to both of us that we're not calling enough fouls, we're doing a terrible job, etc., quietly, not yelling. We move away from him, and he proceeds to follow us, so we move farther away, he goes back to his player. This behavior would have and should have deserved a technical foul under any other circumstance, but my partner and I discussed it and decided that we did not want to make a big deal and call a technical foul while the the player was still in pain on the floor, making every one believe that we were more concerned about the coach than the player's painful injury, but that we would give the coach no more latitude and would call a technical foul the next time he complained. Wouldn't you have it, the coach never said "boo" the entire second half.

We missed our chance. I learned from that experience. It will never happen again.
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