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Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 1052162)

For the last few years when I've filled out the questionnaire I've asked if not begged for a flop warning.

I'm first curious how a "flop violation", or even a "formal flop warning" would be handled. Is it only a violation for offense players? If A1 is driving and B1 flops, do we stop play to call the violation and give the ball right back to... team A?

I'm also curious how much of a difference a "flop violation" would make. The number of times I've heard "I am NEVER going to call a flopping technical, it's way too risky" or "I've only ever seen it once... ONCE..." is a fairly substantial number and usually cited is the question of how obvious it was. In HS games, many times flopping comes with a disadvantage to a team anyway - one of their players is distracted trying to perform a bad acting job while game action continues around him/her. Most of the time, an obvious flop is already handled as a non-call. In a lot of cases, just ignoring the obvious flops is likely to have the most impact.

I guess it gives you another level of escalation if you need it between informal "hey, 23, don't stretch it" and the tech, but would it change any behavior? Have any cases where you'd use a flop violation or a "formal" flop warning that goes beyond an informal "knock it off"?

Would you use it for crowd control? I can't imagine it's any better to accuse a team of flopping as a way of keeping the crowd from having wild reactions to poor acting jobs?

What would make you more willing to administer flopping punishments? Video review proving it was a flop?

Is there any particular situation you would have used a violation or formal warning for flopping vs. today's options?

Works well in NCAAW. Applies to offense or defense. Give the signal when it happens, but don't stop play the first time. Report the warning at the next stoppage. On the second time, stop play and issue the T unless A has an immediate chance to score (or some similar words).

I agree. This should also be the case in HS. At the same time, NCAAM initially had a warning for flopping, but that went away before the 2022-23 season. I'm willing to bet that the reason why NCAAM got rid of the warning is because they have 2 classes of technical fouls, not one, and thus felt that giving the player a lesser technical foul (Class B) with a lesser penalty (Class B technical fouls have one free throw) and resuming play from the point of interruption was enough of a deterrent.

NFHS does not have Class A/Class B for players, so making flopping a team technical foul might make officials more willing to call it. The alternative would be to introduce a Class B technical foul to NFHS, and reclassify lesser infractions, such as hanging on the ring, faking being fouled, and boundary infractions, as Class B technical fouls. That way, a player who receives a technical foul for faking and for unsportsmanlike conduct will not be immediately ejected, because the 2 technical fouls are not of the same severity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1052166)

Thanks Bob. Curiously, the questionnaire refers to a "violation for faking being fouled (flopping)" which sent my mind questioning how they'd establish a violation (vs. the warning).

I guess I can see the value of a delayed warning as an option, how much would it be used beyond more informal "knock it off" verbals?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlasherZ (Post 1052169)

There is no established penalty for flopping now. I know people want to say there is, but show us the situation that suggests you call a T for a player diving on a shot? Exactly, you will not find such a reference. I think the question was to make this clear how to do something about flopping and use the right language or use the right examples.

Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1052170)

Exactly. I have gotten flack in the past for calling faking being fouled, but I have not had any other valid options to address this play within the parameters of NFHS rules. Calling a block on block/charge plays with the defender faking is a solution, but it is an unsatisfactory one when there is no contact and the defender just sits down to fool the officials.

I do hope that the NFHS will find an actual way to address flopping, because it has trickled down, but officials are reluctant to address it using the tools they have. I understand them, because calling a technical foul per the rulebook is a rather harsh solution, especially on the 1st offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1052087)

Part I – Are These Changes Made Last Year

3. Eliminating the one-and-one for common fouls beginning with the seventh team foul in the half and establishing the bonus as two free throws awarded for a common foul beginning with the team’s fifth foul in each quarter and resetting the fouls at the end of each quarter.

4. Establishing four throw-in spots when a team is retaining or gaining team control in its frontcourt due to a violation, a common foul prior to the bonus, or other stoppages in play other than an out of bounds.

5. Allowing the official administering a throw-in to the wrong team to correct the mistake before the first dead ball after the ball becomes live unless there is a change of possession.

6. Allowing a player to step out of bounds without penalty unless they are the first player to touch the ball after returning to the court or if they left the court to avoid a violation.

These are all improvements and worked well. The other two are meaningless in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1052087)

Part II – Observations – Have You Seen In Your Area?

4. An increase in unsporting or confrontational behavior by fans toward officials.

Fan behavior has been increasingly worse since COVID. The coaches and players were fine in the games that I did this year.
I had three technical fouls all season—one was for hanging on the ring, another was for taunting (player to opposing player), and the last was for a player tossing the ball away after a traveling call.
The coaches around here were wonderful. The players were generally good. However, the fans are idiots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1052087)

Part III – About Rules For 2024-25 – Would You Favor?

1. Requiring the game clock to stop after a made basket in the last minute of the game and overtime. No, our timers have enough difficulty already.

2. Requiring the visiting team jersey to be white and the home team jersey to be a contrasting dark color. Don’t care. Either way is fine with me. Just get rid of gray.

3. Limiting the head coach to only request a time-out during a dead-ball situation. ABSOLUTELY!!! Would be the best change that the NFHS could make.

4. Removing coaching box privileges from the head coach only when the head coach receives a direct technical foul and allowing the head coach the use of the coaching box after an indirect technical foul. Fine. I don’t care if the HC is sitting or standing.

5. Returning to a bonus free throw after the seventh team foul that allows a second free throw only when the first attempt is successful and two free throws after the tenth team foul each quarter. NO!

6. Allowing a bonus free throw after the fourth team foul that allows a second free throw only when the first attempt is successful and two free throws after the sixth team foul each quarter. No. It is clear and simple now. Always two shots. Don’t mess this up.

7. Awarding two free throws after the sixth team foul and resetting the team foul count at the end of each quarter. Five seemed to work well for 8-minute quarters. Would six be better for pace of play or just cause more aggressive play? Additionally, 5-5-5 is kind of nice. Five individual fouls for DQ, five team fouls per quarter for the bonus, and five time-outs for each team in a game.

8. Establishing goaltending when the ball contacts the backboard and any part of the ball is above the rim during a field goal attempt when the ball is touched by a player as long as it has a possibility of entering the basket. Might as well. That is what people see on TV and believe the rule to be anyway.

9. Establishing basket interference when a blocked shot attempt causes the ring to shake causing an unsuccessful try for goal. Same as #8.

10. Eliminating the penalty for dunking during pre-game and halftime warm-ups. Yes, less for us to have to deal with. If the baskets get broken, we get paid anyway. Shouldn’t be the problem of the officials.

11. Assessing a team technical foul for dunking during pre-game warm-ups instead of a player technical foul. I would rather that it gets eliminated entirely. However, this is better than the current rule.

12. Using the 3-point line as the determining line for if the ball is inbounded in a team’s frontcourt from the end line or at the nearest 28-foot mark on the sideline instead of the imaginary line. Fine, but I would rather see the FT lane and semi-circle used for end line throw-ins and have everything else go to the side.

13. Requiring all frontcourt throw-ins to take place at one of the four spots used for violations, fouls and other stoppages. Fine

14. Allowing a team to advance the ball to the 28-foot mark in the team’s frontcourt upon a time-out after a made basket, securing a rebound or a change of possession with under one minute to play in the fourth quarter or overtime period. No way! That just favors the team getting the ball. The NBA only allows advancing because it keeps the TV audience and allows for more commercials to be shown when fans would otherwise turn the game off.

15. Establishing a violation when a team is inbounding the ball in the frontcourt and throws the ball into the backcourt to avoid a five-second call. No. Let them throw the ball in and play. This isn’t the NBA.

16. Establishing a violation for faking being fouled (flopping). Unnecessary, just call a T, call a blocking foul, or ignore it. We don’t need another rule to deal with faking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1052166)

Is the eventual T charged to the player or just the team?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 1052174)

Is the eventual T charged to the player or just the team?

Generally, team (there is an exception for a video review for an I or DQ foul).

https://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4...ules-book.aspx

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1052171)

In my experience, the majority of "flopping" cases in HS are just a young player not knowing how to take a charge/being afraid of the contact, etc. They usually aren't "trying to fool us" so much as they're trying to do what their coach wants of them without getting hurt lol.

If an official is getting fooled by a player "sitting down" I don't think I want that same official to be judging what is and isn't a flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy (Post 1052176)

All flopping is not block-charge type of play. And I see a lot of players trying to fool us. It is clear in the games and clear on the tape. What is with all the "head bobbing" on drives or flailing during jump shots with almost no contact?

That is why there needs to be more to whatever the rules says, because there are other acts that are flopping that are not block-charge plays.

I had a play where the kid not only flopped on a block-charge play, he pulled his legs together to make sure the ball handler fell. That is why I called a block on his behind and did not care what reaction I got.

Peace

From these last two years as strictly an observer, defenders falling down pretending to take a charge is the least prevalent type of flop in Boys games We are getting all kinds of head bobs and jump shooters going to the floor. Those are intentional acts to try to fool officials.

It's not about poorly trained officials we wouldn't want to see on the court. It's about players doing acts that are deceptive in nature.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

The flops I have called this year have mostly been on shooters falling with no contact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1052091)

Why the 180 degree turn here?

For the past forty-three-plus years (probably longer) the home team has worn white (light color previous to 2007-08).

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Payoff to Fed by uniform suppliers.

NevadaRef:

Part III, Question 10: I was not surprised at this question, which would make the NFHS Rule the same as the NCAA Men's Rule (The AIAW and NCAA Women's has always allowed the Dunking of a Ball, Dead or Live) of also allowing a Dead Ball to be Dunked which the NCAA Men's adopted for the 2014-15 school year which was reverting back to the NBC Rule which was in effect up to and including the 1967-68 school year.

Part III, Question 11: This question did surprise me somewhat because it would be reverting back to the Penalty when the Dunking a Dead Ball TF was adopted for the 1971-72 school year by the NBC.

MTD, Sr.