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-   -   Running out of bounds to fool opponents (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105961-running-out-bounds-fool-opponents.html)

BillyMac Wed Mar 22, 2023 02:10pm

Flop ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy (Post 1050443)
I don't want to get into a semantic debate ...

A flop is when it's called.

Or is it vice versa?

MechanicGuy Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1050445)
NCAA-Men's has done a good job of addressing it and defining it.

Other than the call essentially disappearing over the last month, I agree.

My point is that what is a "flop" in an NCAA game is different from "faking being fouled." If NFHS/IAABO deemed it necessary to address, they would make it a point of emphasis - and ideally, they'd give us a penalty less than a T to apply.

Raymond Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy (Post 1050452)
Other than the call essentially disappearing over the last month, I agree.

My point is that what is a "flop" in an NCAA game is different from "faking being fouled." If NFHS/IAABO deemed it necessary to address, they would make it a point of emphasis - and ideally, they'd give us a penalty less than a T to apply.

They are the same to me. IMO, too many people confine the definition of flop to defenders on potential crash plays. Most flopping I see at the HS level is 3 point shooters throwing themselves to the ground--trying to fool the referee into calling a foul. Same with the head bob by ballhandlers and defenders who run into screens.

MechanicGuy Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1050453)
They are the same to me. IMO, too many people confine the definition of flop to defenders on potential crash plays. Most flopping I see at the HS level is 3 point shooters throwing themselves to the ground--trying to fool the referee into calling a foul. Same with the head bob by ballhandlers and defenders who run into screens.

Have you ever penalized such action with a technical foul?

There is no reason why the penalty should be 2-shots AND possession AND a personal foul when in the NCAA is merely 1 shot and POI.

Raymond Thu Mar 23, 2023 01:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechanicGuy (Post 1050454)
Have you ever penalized such action with a technical foul?

There is no reason why the penalty should be 2-shots AND possession AND a personal foul when in the NCAA is merely 1 shot and POI.

In a college games, yes. In a HS game, no.

But that doesn't change the fact that HS players frequently throw themselves to the ground after 3-pointers and bob their heads like they've been shot in the forehead all for the purposes of fooling the officials into thinking they've been fouled.

Kansas Ref Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1050346)
Violation.

NFHS 9-3-3: A player must not leave the court for an unauthorized reason. Penalty: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of bounds spot nearest the violation.

9.3.3 SITUATION B: A1 and A2 set a double screen near the end line. A3 intentionally goes out of bounds outside the end line to have his/her defender detained by the double screen. RULING: The official shall call a violation on A3 as soon as he/she steps out of bounds. The ball is awarded to Team B at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

*Our crew had this play in a game this season and the ref who whistled the action called it a technical foul. We very briefly convened and I told the ref that it should've been a violation, but he insisted on the tech and rushed to administer accordingly. This occurred early in the first quarter; when we met during the between-quarter break he told us both that he'd had the same odd play in previous game and ruled it the same way "those trick plays don't fool me", he proudly proclaimed.

JRutledge Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1050516)
*Our crew had this play in a game this season and the ref who whistled the action called it a technical foul. We very briefly convened and I told the ref that it should've been a violation, but he insisted on the tech and rushed to administer accordingly. This occurred early in the first quarter; when we met during the between-quarter break he told us both that he'd had the same odd play in previous game and ruled it the same way "those trick plays don't fool me", he proudly proclaimed.

Did he go out of bounds to just avoid a screen or did he delay coming back on the court in some way? Because delaying coming to the court is actually a technical foul. That is according to 10.4.2 Situation A.

Peace

Kansas Ref Wed Mar 29, 2023 07:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1050517)
Did he go out of bounds to just avoid a screen or did he delay coming back on the court in some way? Because delaying coming to the court is actually a technical foul. That is according to 10.4.2 Situation A.

Peace

*Nothing was special about that play, I was the C, and it was a simple throw in from the opposite sideline of where I was. The player/pass receiver appeared to just run out of bounds to avoid defensive pressure. The ref called a Tech.

justacoach Thu Mar 30, 2023 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1050525)
*Nothing was special about that play, I was the C, and it was a simple throw in from the opposite sideline of where I was. The player/pass receiver appeared to just run out of bounds to avoid defensive pressure. The ref called a Tech.

No tech unless the player doing throw-in, who was already legally oob, delayed returning inbounds.

Your sitch was a violation for intentionally leaving the court.

BillyMac Thu Mar 30, 2023 02:22pm

Rare Play ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 1050530)
Your sitch was a violation for intentionally leaving the court ...

... for an unauthorized reason.

NFHS 9-3-3: A player must not leave the court for an unauthorized reason. Penalty: The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of bounds spot nearest the violation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 1050530)
No tech unless the player doing throw-in, who was already legally oob, delayed returning inbounds.

10-4-1: Player Technical: A player must not: Purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds.

We also have the rare case of a technical foul for a player, who was not legally out of bounds (not a throwin play), leaving the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust, or intimidation.

10-4-6-I : Player Technical: A player must not: Leave the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust, or intimidation.

Seen this called only once in forty-plus years. Called a foul on a player (not her fifth foul) who was verbally upset with the official who made the foul call and then ran off the court (not waiting for a substitute) straight into the locker room. After checking with the coach that it was for an unauthorized reason (not a bathroom break, injury, etc.) we charged her with the technical foul.

Kansas Ref Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 1050530)
No tech unless the player doing throw-in, who was already legally oob, delayed returning inbounds.

Your sitch was a violation for intentionally leaving the court.

*At the time that action occurred I had informed the ruling referee of such; however, as I stated earlier the ruling referee was self-assured and had ostensibly adjudicated similar plays in the past. Basically, I "said my peace" and we moved on.


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