Chin-up
 

Both teams are on the court and before the Referee enters the circle for the Jump Ball, A5 jumps up, grabs the basket ring and does a Chin-up. :eek:
Is there a problem?:rolleyes: If so, what's the ruling?

Grasp ...
 

Prevent Damage To The Basket ...
 

The intent and purpose of this rule (and a similar dunking rule) is to prevent damage to the basket before, or during, the game.

A broken, or distorted, rim could delay a game.

That is why I believe that this rule should be adjudicated as soon as the officials’ jurisdiction begins (similar to the adjudication of pregame dunking).

2-2: Officials’ Jurisdiction: The officials’ jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The officials’ arrival on the floor must be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game. The officials’ jurisdiction extends through periods when the game may be momentarily stopped for any reason. The jurisdiction of the officials is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

In Zoochy's original post, the offender was a player, thus no indirect technical foul the head coach.

It could also have been bench personnel if the infraction occurred in pregame warmups, in which case the head coach would receive an indirect technical foul.

10-5-1-I: Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Here’s today's history lesson:

When Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) (UCLA 1966-1969, NBA 1969-1989) started playing basketball for UCLA Bruins, NCAA officials felt that the seven foot, two inch All-American center, being especially tall and athletic, could place the ball over the rim and throw it through the hoop with ease. This feat of athleticism which we all know as the dunk, and seems so routine now, was not so routine back in the mid-1960’s. It was considered unfair that he could do it so easily. So the NCAA banned dunking in 1967. This was called the “Alcindor Rule”. Another reason dunking was outlawed was to prevent injury and equipment damage. A distorted rim could delay a game. As a result of the rule, Alcindor developed a great hook shot, the “Sky Hook”, which he used effectively during his playing days in college, and in the NBA. After multiple issues with the new rule and the invention of the breakaway rim the NCAA allowed the dunk to be legal again during 1976-1977 season which was shortly after UCLA Coach John Wooden's retirement. The “Alcindor Rule” eventually trickled down to NFHS rules. In 1967, the NFHS banned dunking in high school basketball games. In 1970, the NFHS also prohibited dunking during pregame warmups. Like the NCAA, the NFHS reversed itself in 1976 and a rule change allowed dunking during the game but not during pregame warmups, nor during intermissions, and with a later rule change in 1978 outlawing dunking a dead ball.

There will be a quiz.

Fuzzy Specifics, But It Did Happen ...
 

Infamous game regarding this rule back in the mid-to-late 1970's.

Southern Connecticut State College (my alma mater) versus Springfield College. Winning team wins a one point game at the final buzzer and celebrates by immediately dunking the dead ball while the officials were still in their positions on the court (they didn't even start their off the court trot). Free throw (or free throws) for the technical foul either reversed the victory, or led to an overtime that eventually reversed the victory.

Ouch! I wonder how many suicides the losing players ran at the next practice?

When do the five starters on the court become players after the warm-up period?

They are certainly players when the ball becomes live on the toss, but are they players prior to that?

That is my question. When is the transition from Bench Member to Player?

Transition During A Full Moon ...
 

4-34-1: Players/ Bench Personnel/ Substitutes/ Team Members: A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission.

My opinion: Based on intent and purpose, sometime after player introductions and the final pre-game team huddle, as soon as only five players leave their bench area and head out to the court to gather for the jump ball, that's when they become players. Team members left behind on the bench are then considered bench personnel.

Chin-up
 

I would even go so far as to say that bench personnel become players when the ball becomes live to start the first quarter. Just as they do when the ball becomes live following any other (extra) period following an intermission.

Granted “pre-game” is not an intermission, but I think there’s enough rule intent there to make that determination.


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Interesting ...
 

Interesting interpretation.

6-1-2: The ball becomes live when: a. On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand(s). b. On a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower. c. On a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

But I'm not quite sure that crosscountry55's interesting interpretation matches the definition of a player.

Also not sure that something that happens "before" the game can be considered to be an inter-mission.

Inter - Word-forming element used freely in English, "between, among, during," from Latin inter "among, between, betwixt, in the midst of" (also used extensively as a prefix).

Simply put, five players are on the court, bench personnel are on the bench.

Of course, it's much more complicated than that, especially when it comes to indirect technical fouls (the theme of this thread), but it's a good starting point

Pre-game T occurs during warm-ups.

After introductions we are lining up for Team A's Technical free throws. Prior to ball being put at disposal of shooter, B1 on the court yells out, "No cap, this is some B**S**t.

Player or Bench personnel?

How can you be a player in a game that hasn't started yet? :confused::confused:

Where is BillyMac when we need a Devil's Advocate?

At what point do we determine a player not listed as a starter is illegally on the court?

At what point is it too late for that?

Extreme Example ...
 

Great question. If one really wants to test a rule interpretation, just cite an extreme example.

I'm not even certain if the other nine "players" are mandated to be on the court (lined up on the division line as many, incorrectly, think that they have to do), or if they're allowed to be with teammates in the bench area, some possibly sitting on the bench?

If sitting on the bench, would those starters on the bench have to sit behind the free throw line extended while watching the free throws?

Will we, as officials, tell the other nine "players" to get out of the bench area (and possibly off the bench) and "out onto the court" before we administer the free throws?

My opinion: Once that free throw shooter, before disposal, steps onto the court to shoot free throws, he, his teammates (listed starters), and opponents (listed starters) are all players.

We can't have one "player", the free throw shooter, with everybody else being bench personnel.

Often Pondered ...
 

Another great question, one that I've often pondered, but thought too "officious" to actually put any great thought into.

My opinion: When ten "players" are gathering on the court to prepare for the jump ball.

Another related followup question:

When is it too late to penalize? After toss? After tap? After first possession? At first dead ball? After first dead ball? At first clock stoppage? After first clock stoppage? Before first substitution for said illegal starter? After first substitution for said illegal starter? End of officials' jurisdiction?

10-1-2 Administrative Technical: A team must not: Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a (necessitated by illness, injury, illegal equipment or apparel, etc., or to attempt a technical foul free throw). Penalty: Two free throws plus the ball for a division-line throw-in.

Oddly, I can't find any time limit (statute of limitations) cited.

Hasn't Started ...
 

The same as one can have a sound when a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody there to hear it?

When they're one of ten "players" who have legally stepped onto the court?

Most Unsporting Events Of My Life ...
 

Brings to mind one of the most unsporting events of my life.

I was a fourteen year old playing Babe Ruth baseball. I was on a really terrible team (with me as a terrible player), with no wins at that point in the season (finished season 0-15). We were terrible because we had no true pitchers. Our #1 pitcher was our starting shortstop, not overpowering, but didn't walk a lot of batters. Our #2 pitcher was our starting third baseman, the son of the team sponsor, great moving fastball (as I discovered as the first baseman catching his throws from third base), but absolutely no control, tons of walks, and hit batsmen. No designated #3 pitcher, we just pitched anyone with a pulse.

That night we were playing another terrible team, also with no wins at that point in the season. We were the home team and pitched first. The opposing coach watched as our #1 pitcher warmed up. Then the game started. Our #1 pitcher threw his first pitch.

Opposing coach calls timeout and bounces out of his dugout. Tells the umpire that our #1 pitcher isn't eligible to pitch that night (my coach was unaware his eligibility status that night) due to some limitation rule on pitchers (something about limited appearances in a time period and required days of rest between pitching). The entire situation was complicated by a few suspended partial game rainouts previous to our game.

Game's over. Forfeit. We all pick up our gloves and go home.

The opposing coach watched as our #1 pitcher warmed up, he had our lineup card in his hand, he knew that our #1 pitcher wasn't eligible to pitch that night, and yet he waited for that first pitch instead of saying something pregame to our coach or the umpire.

But he got his win. That's all that counted to him. Not that thirty kids didn't get to play baseball that night.

Still pisses me off to this day, fifty-five years later.

Found It ...
 

This lends to my thought that there are no "players" until the ball is live to start the game.

Though, good luck explaining to both coaches why they have to sit all game when two opponents on the court shove each other prior to the opening jump ball.

Is There Ever A Penalty ???
 

I find it interesting that a team could get a "do-over" (substitute in the listed starter) to avoid a penalty if discovered as the "players" gather for the jump ball, or may later get a totally free pass after the ball is tossed.

I can't think of a reason a coach would opt for the penalty instead of just making a sub on the first dead ball unless the player were Cal Ripken Jr.

The Streak ...
 

Cal Ripken, Jr. plays basketball?

My son was third basemen (Ripken played third base late in his career) in Little League and still has a poster of Cal Ripken, Jr. on his childhood bedroom wall.

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