does 10 second count not start over in D1 any more?
 

KU OSU yesterday, OSU throws in from backcourt, KU deflected it out in backcourt so OSU throws it in again at 1049, and Sirmons calls backcourt at 1043? No one questions? New rule? It was 6 seconds!

Forgot To Subtract ...
 

I know very little about NCAA ten second rules or shot clock rules (I know more about rocket science), but could this have been caused by confusion in using the shot clock rather than a visible count to "count" ten seconds?

If so, we could have the same confusion in a NFHS game with shot clock.

that is what happened, but when it is a 6 second call, how the whole gym doesn't know what happened is beyond me.

Need more context. What was the start of the play? Was this in the first or second half? There is some stuff missing to know what was ruled on.

Basically, an out-of-bounds violation where the team with the ball retains possession in their backcourt, the 10-second clock does not start over. They must get it across at 20 seconds on the shot clock. If the ball was in the FC, if the ball is thrown to the BC, then there is a new 10-second count. All based on what the read of the shot clock says at the time. They can get a new timeout if there is a timeout called, or an official's timeout or a stoppage based on the official decision.

So to really answer we would have to know how the play started. That is key to seeing if it was just a mistake or properly adjudicated.

Peace

No Start Over ...
 

Thanks JRutledge.

I told everybody that I know more about rocket science than NCAA ten second rules.

Second half BTW
 

Just went back an saw this play.

There was an out-of-bounds violation in the BC that Oklahoma State Retained the ball in their BC. The shot clock said 25 seconds. They have until 20 to get it across as I said the shot clock never reset and there is a not a new 10-second count. They had 5 seconds.

Now not sure how well the crew communicated that to the players or the team. And maybe the player did not know the rule or did not realize they had to get it across (which they often don't) in 5 seconds.

But they got the rule right. And the broadcast went away from the floor and was doing some graphics, so it was not clear what communication was done or not done. Usually, talk about this in my pre-games (I am nowhere near these guys' levels BTW) at the small college level and even yesterday we talked about this situation when I worked. We said how we need to make it clear to everyone and each other if this happens when the violation can happen, even when it does not normally start at 30. You could have had a timeout at 25 and then the team has until 15 to get it across and usually there is still confusion on the teams or they are not aware the time changed.

Peace

Struggles Against A Press ...
 

So in college, a team that struggles against a press to get the ball over the division line in ten seconds can request a timeout and get the full ten seconds after the subsequent backcourt inbound (and the shot clock stays at whatever it was)?

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/ce/00/cd/c...68aec20c5c.jpg

Yes

Happy New Year ...
 

I learned a lot today.

Isn't that what I said? Please do not ask a ton of random questions about what the rule is at the NF level or how it applies to something where you live. The rule is just different at the college level. They have been using a shot clock for a lot longer and wanted to speed up the game. No need to go into multiple variations of why it is that way or what might happen at the high school level. Nothing changes the 10-second count at the NF level unless a state adopts the rule differently. Otherwise, the rule is the same. ;)

Peace

Be Prepared ...
 

As I previously stated, I learned a lot today about college rules. I don't need to know such rules, but it might help me to understand the reasoning of an irate and confused high school coach who sees one rule on television and another in my game.

OK, then that rule has changed since I officiated a decade or so ago. Used to be a reset and new 10 seconds. that explains why no one complained. lol.

Just curious, anyone remember when it was changed? It is a change for the better, although doesn't make sense you can call t/o to get a reset.

thanks,

Steep Price To Pay ...
 

A timeout isn't a steep price to pay to simply avoid a ten second violation?

NCAAW is different from NCAAM on some of this.

It *used to be* that anytime there was a stoppage, the offense would get a new 10-seconds (similar to the HS rule). Now, the offense gets a new 10-seconds, except:

H -- Held ball and the arrow favors the offense
O -- ball out of bounds off the defense
T -- Time out request by the offense (this is different from NCAAM)
T -- Technical foul (administrative) to the team in control

We are not being giving enough information to have an opinion on this.

The 10 second count has been the same for NCAA men's for quite a while now. There's no confusion in regards to using the shot clock.

Since you have no idea, I'm not sure why you're throwing stuff up against the wall.

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It is when you only get one full time out and three 30s and one of the 30s doesn't carry over to the second half.

College rules are written by college coaches and college athletic directors. They want it that way. The rule was changed a few years ago for a reason. Because that's what college teams want.

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I really do not remember. I know since the shot clock was at 30 for sure. I have worked a few leagues over the last 4 or 5 years and that rule has been in place I am sure for that time frame. But I have worked college ball for over 10 years.

Peace

It Could Happen ...
 

I opined (with a question mark, the word "could", and a declaration about my lack of NCAA rules knowledge) because of this.

Shot clock is coming to Connecticut next year.

We have to be prepared to do some mental subtraction.

Twenty-five will not always be the "magic number".

Question Mark ...
 

Which is why I ended my post with a question mark, expecting an affirmative answer, "Yes, it is a steep price".

We've already had multiple conversations about the shot clock and the fact that the NCAA has specific rules about it and the NFHS so far has not been very detail oriented. So you throwing stuff up against the wall now is not going to help you next year.

The only thing that's going to help you next year is either the NFHS updating its rules or your state publishing something specific.

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Continuation ...
 

Agree. I certainly hope that my state association and state board clarify exactly how were going to handle certain shot clock situations.

However, my main interest in this thread was in regard to the NCAA ten second rule and it's "continuation" in some situations (that I had absolutely no knowledge of before JRutledge's first post this thread) where we would always restart it in high school.

I am going to disagree a little here. I think the NF has given more information on the guidelines for this than just about every other situation I can think of. They have had publications that state how other levels operate and how they intend to operate. They made it pretty clear they were not adopting some rules the NCAA had in place. And saying that a new 10-second count is one of them. Referee Magazine had a great article about the differences in Men's college and NF and even the NBA. Things like rebounds by the offense to a backcourt out of bounds after a ball hits the rim. I cannot complain hardly one bit about the information the NF put out there in this specific situation. They did well IMO.

NF Shot Clock Guidelines

Peace

no, I dont think its fair to avoid a violation with a timout

Oh, then that's where Billy should be getting his shot clock information from and not really worrying about what the NCAA does.

Hadn't really looked at the high school rulebook in regards to the shot clock this year since my state has resisted it so far :)

When I'm observing an NCAA game, it's definitely one of the top priorities of what officials need to take care of.

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Timeouts are valuable. There are a lot of violations saved by timeouts. Why not this situation too?

Peace

Absolutely agree. And anyone could read this and figure it out. Had a tournament this past week that used one and the issues were minimal. We even talked about it with the last game I did in that tournament how we would handle the clock so we were all on the same page. No issues that game, Thank God!!!!

Peace

Connecticut Shot Clock ...
 

I've never really worried too much about the NCAA shot clock with two exceptions. First, Connecticut has been using a shot clock in private prep school varsity games for over thirty years using a hybrid high school version of NCAA rules, requiring shot clock knowledge (not 100% NCAA kosher) on my part. Second, as states went to shot clocks one at a time like falling dominoes, and knowing that the shot clock was eventually coming down the Connecticut pike, I took a little more than a passing interest in various shot clock guidelines.

Agree.

Connecticut is going to the shot clock for varsity (shot clock will be optional in subvarsity games) games next year. Haven't heard too much about any changes to the published NFHS guidelines so far other than our local (not state board interpreter nor state governing body) board interpreter seems to think that we will continue to use a visible ten second count at all times, possibly starting on backcourt "possessions", but that's just one opinion from a local board interpreter.

Jeff posted the current NFHS rules. Anything still questionable should be addressed to them or your state.

I just don't see the purpose of throwing stuff up against the wall in regards to a play that happened in an NCAA Men's game. Since you don't know the rules, why add anything to the scenario? Don't we have enough officials here who know the rules who will eventually answer the question for the person?

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You Don't Know What You Don't Know ...
 

Since the NFHS recently came out with more detailed high school shot clock guidelines, there is no need for me to address anybody at this time about anything high school shot clock related (I did have some questions about starting the shot clock (touch) two years ago when the NFHS first decided to allow shot clocks and came out with what I considered to be incomplete or ambiguous guidelines, still do in some respects).

I'm fairly confident that the CIAC and the IAABO Connecticut State Board will publicize easy to understand (or at least as easy to understand as shot clock guidelines can be) Connecticut shot clock guidelines (under the doctrine of states’ rights, that may be the same, or different, than the NFHS guidelines) in the fall of 2023. I do know that the IAABO Connecticut State Board is aware of the ambiguity regarding when the shot clock starts, touch with a shot clock, and possession with no shot clock. I'm curious to see how we handle that here in Connecticut.

Yes we certainly do.

At the time of my first post I had no idea that the NCAA ten second rule, other than the count start on a touch rather than a possession, was so much different than the NFHS ten second rule, not starting a new ten second count as we do in the high school game after the ball deflects off the defense out of bounds in the backcourt.

I was wrong, so shoot me for not knowing what I don't know.

On the other hand, ignorantia legis neminem excusat (ignorance of law excuses no one).

Note: I've been watching Perry Mason reruns on late night cable.

Not knowing, or even considering for a second, that there could be that much of a difference in the two rule sets regarding this specific situation, I came up with a plausible, but incorrect answer, (thedewed, a former college official, thought the same as me) ...

... that the official failed to mentally subtract time from the shot clock that he used to "count" ten seconds ...

... a possible real-game problem for those of us who now, or in the future, might use the shot clock to "count" ten seconds in our high school games, high school games where the ten second count (but not the shot clock) is "reset" to ten seconds after the ball deflects off the defense out of bounds in the backcourt.

And here's another reason why I've become so interested this NCAA thread:

And is the 80%-of-a-count rule still a thing too?

Great Minds Think Alike ...
 

Ah, the infamous, ancient times "Change Of Status" rule.

I remember it well.

I actually thought about that as statements in the thread were posted about using a timeout to avoid a ten second violation and getting a new ten seconds.

For the young'uns, and many not so young'uns, the "Change Of Status" rule stated that officials could not grant a request for timeout when 80% of a count had passed (four for five seconds, eight for ten seconds), for example, on throwins, closely guarded, and ten seconds.

I actually had to use this odd rule a few times before it was taken out behind the barn and ceremoniously and humanely shot and put out of its misery.

Best of Luck !!!!
 

BM,

Best of luck with the shot clocks. Had an opportunity to watch some high school games over the break. In every game there was about 8 shot clock errors that weren't caught. Most being deflections / fumbles that were re set to 30 that the defense never possessed. I know Raymond is observing hs games in the 757. Raymond are you dealing with the shot clock down there???

Had a tournament this last week that used it and had the title games and we had no issues in the title game and the other game had a couple that is standard. I think we are really making a big deal out of much of nothing. Small college often has some baseball players that are an hour before game time picked and they never had worked the clock before. Guess what, we got through it. I think this idea we will not have issues is silly. There are issues with people that run the game clock and we still have to do it. The shot clock will be found.

Peace

The only time I see it used down here in public school games is the annual girls Christmas tournament they have at Boo Williams. I was there Friday evening observing and I paid absolutely no attention at all to what was going on with the shot clocks.

The biggest problem I have witnessed and/or experienced with high school and AAU shot clocks is them starting way too soon or way too late or simply not resetting it at all. It often comes to a point that is not worth stopping the game anymore and officials just have to take some heat when the 10 second back court count is obviously not in sync with what the shot clock has.



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