BillyMac dream come true

[Raymond]

Chicago State at Minnesota. Player goes to throw a pass from outside the three-point line and a defender deflects it and it goes into the basket. Officials awarded a three-pointer. Don't remember if the defender was inside or outside the 3-pt line

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Player goes to throw a pass from outside the three-point line and a defender deflects it and it goes into the basket. Officials awarded a three-pointer. Don't remember if the defender was inside or outside the 3-pt line.

Touched by a defender, either inside, or outside, the three point line, is easy. Three points.

More interesting would be if the pass was deflected by another offensive player who was also outside the three point line.

I say three points, even if the pass was deflected off of his head.

Even more interesting would be if the end of period horn sounded as the passed and deflected ball was in flight on its way to the basket after deflecting off the second offensive player. No points.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Player goes to throw a pass from outside the three-point line and a defender deflects it and it goes into the basket.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Touched by a defender, either inside, or outside, the three point line, is easy. Three points.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

More interesting would be if the pass was deflected by another offensive player who was also outside the three point line. I say three points ... Even more interesting would be if the end of period horn sounded as the passed and deflected ball was in flight on its way to the basket after deflecting off the second offensive player. No points.

In Raymond's original situation (defender deflects), had the end of period horn sounded as the passed and deflected ball was in flight on its way to the basket would it be no points because it wasn't a try?

If it was not a pass, but an ordinary try, deflected by a defender (think blocked shot), and the end of period horn sounded as the deflected ball was in flight on its way to the basket, the basket would count (try hadn't ended).

But, in Raymond's original situation, it wasn't described as a try, it was described as a pass.

Enquiring minds want to know.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In Raymond's original situation (defender deflects), had the end of period horn sounded as the passed and deflected ball was in flight on its way to the basket would it be no points because it wasn't a try?

Too obvious to warrant an answer

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Chicago State at Minnesota. Player goes to throw a pass from outside the three-point line and a defender deflects it and it goes into the basket. Officials awarded a three-pointer. Don't remember if the defender was inside or outside the 3-pt line

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I am sure this would be an easy find. But it looked like they awarded a 2 on the initial call. Did they change it later?

Peace

[BillyMac]

For young'uns born after the introduction of the three point line (NFHS 1987-1988), initially, in order to count three points, the officials had to be 100% sure that it was an actual try.

Initially, an alley oop pass from behind the three point line to a teammate that "accidentally" and directly went in the basket was only counted as two points.

The rule changed to the present rule after only a few years.

Once Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. rehabilitates his new "Six Million Dollar Man" knee, he can climb up to his attic library and tell us when the change occurred.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am sure this would be an easy find. But it looked like they awarded a 2 on the initial call. Did they change it later?



Peace

I can't embed it from my phone, but I just watched it again, and yes it was only a 2 initially but the play-by-play has it as 3. Just saw also that one foot for the defender was inside the 3-point line.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Player goes to throw a pass from outside the three-point line and a defender deflects it and it goes into the basket.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Touched by a defender, either inside, or outside, the three point line, is easy. Three points.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Just saw also that one foot for the defender was inside the 3-point line.

Doesn't matter (NFHS) inside, or outside, for a defender, still three points.

It does matter if the ball touches a second offensive player, inside, two points; outside, three points.

[JRutledge]

The play in question was clearly not at the basket or by the description of the NF an "Alley-opp" pass. This was just a cross-court attempted a pass that was deflected by the defender in front and then went in the basket. So yes, it matters at least by the NF description. Clearly at the NCAA level they even say that it must be a pass toward the basket on some level and clearly says why. The deflection went in a totally different direction.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Touched by a defender, either inside, or outside, the three point line, is easy. Three points.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Doesn't matter (NFHS) inside, or outside, for a defender, still three points.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This was just a cross-court attempted a pass that was deflected by the defender in front and then went in the basket. So yes, it matters at least by the NF description.

NFHS 5-2-A: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three- point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

NFHS rule citation doesn't mention a ball touching a defender inside the arc (or outside the arc) as negating three points.

No NFHS rule language about the direction of the original pass, unlike the NCAA language.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... at the NCAA level they even say that it must be a pass toward the basket on some level ...

[Nevadaref]

The NFHS has made it clear through play rulings that the thrown ball must have a chance to enter the basket on its own prior to any deflection in order to count for three points. Recall the case play in which the shot comes down several feet short, strikes a defender in the shoulder, bounces up and into the goal. The ruling is only two points.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS has made it clear through play rulings that the thrown ball must have a chance to enter the basket on its own prior to any deflection in order to count for three points. Recall the case play in which the shot comes down several feet short, strikes a defender in the shoulder, bounces up and into the goal. The ruling is only two points.

Did they take that casebook play out? I remember that as well.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three- point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

NFHS rule citation doesn't mention a ball touching a defender inside the arc (or outside the arc) as negating three points.

No NFHS rule language about the direction of the original pass, unlike the NCAA language.

Funny you did not read or show 5.2.1 Situation B which clearly states there was an "Alley-oop" type pass.

With 2:24 left in the second quarter, B1 has the ball on the left wing in Team B's frontcourt, standing behind the three-point arc. B5 makes the backdoor cut toward the basket. B1 passes the ball toward the ring and B5 leaps for the potential "alley-oop" dunk. The ball however, enters and passes through the goal directly from B1's pass and is not touched by B5.

Score three points for Team B. A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points, regardless whether the ball is thrown was an actual try for goal.

To me this suggests it is a throw at least at the goal. That is not what happened in this play at Minnesota at all.

Peace

[BillyMac]

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Comments On The 2001-02 Revisions
Three point basket clarified. Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed, or shot from beyond the three point arc that passes through a team’s own basket. Where in most situations a try can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS has made it clear through play rulings that the thrown ball must have a chance to enter the basket on its own prior to any deflection in order to count for three points. Recall the case play in which the shot comes down several feet short, strikes a defender in the shoulder, bounces up and into the goal. The ruling is only two points.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did they take that casebook play out? I remember that as well.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Check this out:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ee-points.html

There's a lot to digest here, including a ruling by IAABO that contradicts itself (I'm am perfectly aware that few Forum members belong to IAABO).

I have to leave for Christmas dinner at my daughter's house, but I'll be back to comment later, and possibly eat crow if I have any appetite left.

[BillyMac]

4.41.4 Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Did they take that casebook play out?

4.41.4 Situation B is still in the current casebook.

4.41.4 Situation B seems clear and easy enough to understand (two points), but it deals with only a try, not a pass, and does a great job of interpreting when the try ends (when it is certain the try is unsuccessful), thus, I agree with it (two points), but only in the case of a try (not a pass).

The NFHS had made it very clear over that past twenty-one years that one can score three points from a pass as well as a try.

And passes don't automatically end when they fall "below ring level" (as trys do).

5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

Comments On The 2001-02 Revisions
Three point basket clarified. Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed, or shot from beyond the three point arc that passes through a team’s own basket. Where in most situations a try can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

Nowhere in 5.2.1 SITUATION C does the NFHS stipulate that the situation is a try, so it can be a pass, a pass that can be touched both inside and outside the three point arc by both offensive and defensive players.

While the main intent of 5.2.1 SITUATION C was probably to allow a common occurrence, defender with inside-the-three-point-arc-status to attempt a block and deflect a try from inside the arc and still count it as three points if successful; however the caseplay never states that this is a try, thus it could be a pass.

This caseplay also doesn’t state anything about the possibility of this pass (or try) being “on target”.

4.41.4 Situation B does state something about the possibility of a try being “on target”, but specifically for a try, not a pass.

If a try hits another player on the head and goes in, I've got two points (based on 4.41.4 Situation B), no matter if it's an offensive or defensive player, either inside or outside the three point arc.

If a pass hits another player on the head and goes in (based on 5.2.1 SITUATION C), I'm probably counting it as two points or three points depending on offensive or defensive players, either inside or outside the three point arc.

Bottom line, the NFHS needs to do a much better job of interpreting situations like these described in this thread, especially regarding deflections, possibly "expanding" 4.41.4 Situation B to account for both trys and passes.

Maybe things were better back in ancient times, simpler times when all the women were strong, all the men were good-looking, and all the children were above average, when officials had to use judgement and differentiate between a three point try and an alley oop pass?