Verticality ...

[BillyMac]

Here's another IAABO Refresher Exam question that I got wrong.

#66 B-1 is directly behind A-1 who receives the ball in the low post. As A-1 turns to try for goal, B-1’s hands and arms extend vertically in a slightly forward position. A-1’s arm contacts B-1’s arm. The official rules a foul on B-1. Is the official correct?

My answer: #66 Yes.
IAABO answer: #66 No.

4-24-1: It is legal to extend the arms vertically above the shoulders and need not be lowered to avoid contact with an opponent when the action of the opponent causes contact.

4-45-3: The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air.



Take the words “slightly forward” out of this question and it becomes an easy question based on “extend vertically” alone.

With the words “slightly forward” in this question it becomes more subjective and more difficult.

“Slightly forward” isn't the same as straight up.

Comments?

[SNIPERBBB]

Definitely a context thing. If yojr arms are 10-20* from straight up depending on how big the player is they are still inside their space. Unless those arms are moving forward appreciably, im saying NO as well.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Unless those arms are moving forward appreciably, I'm saying NO as well.

Probably why I got it wrong.

That's why in a real game situation I always have my trusty protractor in my pocket with my extra whistle.

[Nevadaref]

There is no NFHS requirement for the arms to be “straight up.” Where does your graphic come from?
*Note: even the sideview of your included graphic depicts a defender within his vertical plane, yet his arms are not “straight up” (at a 90 angle to the floor). They are in a normal vertical defensive posture.
Don’t overly penalize defenders for raising their arms.

[Camron Rust]

The arms must be vertical...but that is only as far as the arms are naturally vertical, not a perfect geometrical vertical.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is no NFHS requirement for the arms to be “straight up.”

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-24-1: It is legal to extend the arms vertically above the shoulders and need not be lowered to avoid contact with an opponent when the action of the opponent causes contact.

4-45-3: The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air.[

From my Funk and Wagnalls:

Vertical: at right angles to a horizontal plane.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Where does your graphic come from?

Good point. Generic internet search for "Basketball Rule Verticality".

Not NFHS. Not IAABO. Not NCAA. Not NBA.

Actually found it on a Northeastern University Intramural Sports Officiating Basketball Power Point.

Did an internet image search and only Northeastern University and this Forum thread came up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The arms must be vertical...but that is only as far as the arms are naturally vertical, not a perfect geometrical vertical.

Agree.

Tough to interpret on a written test with no images.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From my Funk and Wagnalls:

Vertical: at right angles to a horizontal plane.

You cannot use the mathematical definition of a word which is being used to describe human movement in a basketball game. You need to understand it in a basketball sense. If you go with the math definition, you end up with the absurd conclusion that a player should be penalized for having his arms at only 89 degrees instead of a perfect right angle.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You cannot use the mathematical definition of a word which is being used to describe human movement in a basketball game. You need to understand it in a basketball sense. If you go with the math definition, you end up with the absurd conclusion that a player should be penalized for having his arms at only 89 degrees instead of a perfect right angle.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Don't Need A Protector

As I replied to Camron Rust:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree. Tough to interpret on a written test with no images.

Also, how many degrees is "slightly"?

Is "slightly" a subjective term?

Is my "slightly" the same as Camron Rust's "slightly"?

Is my "slightly" the same as Nevadaref's "slightly"?

Is Camron Rust's "slightly" the same as Nevadaref's "slightly"?

What is one degree more than "slightly" called?

"Moderately"?

"Somewhat"?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... how many degrees is "slightly"?

In a real game I probably would not sound a whistle on "slightly".

I probably should have done the same on the written exam.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I probably should have done the same on the written exam.

What makes this question even more complicated is that early versions of the written exam included the phrase "slightly forward", while later versions of the written exam included the phrase "slightly downward", and the answer sheet was for the "slightly downward" version.

I'm not even sure what "slightly downward" means and I can't even picture that.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of the change in wording.

#66 B-1 is directly behind A-1 who receives the ball in the low post. As A-1 turns to try for goal, B-1’s hands and arms extend vertically in a slightly downward position. A-1’s arm contacts B-1’s arm. The official rules a foul on B-1. Is the official correct?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In a real game I probably would not sound a whistle on "slightly".

I probably should have done the same on the written exam.

Don’t feel bad, I got it wrong for the same reason you did. Rules exams are typically known for their lack of subjectivity. It’s just our dumb luck that in this case, “slightly forward” was indeed meant to be subjective by the writer.

IAABO. Sigh….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Don’t feel bad, I got it wrong for the same reason you did. Rules exams are typically known for their lack of subjectivity. It’s just our dumb luck that in this case, “slightly forward” was indeed meant to be subjective by the writer.

We even discussed this question in our Refresher Exam open book study group, with reference citations (but no answers), about a dozen and a half guys, many experienced great rules guys, and just a few who didn't know if the basketball was stuffed or inflated.

The consensus was that “slightly forward” made this contact illegal and a foul.