6 players on the court - women's college
 

Coming out of a time-out, team A breaks team Bs full court press. Team A scores and gets the foul. Opportunity for a three point play. Ball is dead. It is discovered at this point that team A had/has 6 players on the floor. How should this be handled?

Second question. How would it be handled in high school?

You say discovered? Discovered when? You saw 6 on the court or someone informed you that there were 6 on the court. The only way you can call this is when you saw the 6 on the court at some point.

Peace

The play was over. Foul was called. Play was dead. Single given that the bucket was good. At this point, trail official sounds his whistle and signals T for 6 players on the floor.

Six ...
 

From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications from NFHS In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor:

More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

NCAA Bulletin (Sorry, no date on my hard drive)

In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:

SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?
RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Hopefully this clarification will assist officials with the understanding and application of these rules. Thank you for your attention to this information. At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.

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Rabbit Hole ???
 

I’m having problems fully understanding the administration of the 10-1-6 (more than five team members participating simultaneously) penalty. If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

Things That Make You Go Hmmm ...
 

All for NFHS.

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

H) Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

I) After multiple substitutions during which all substitutes reported and were properly beckoned, after the ball becomes live, Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. One of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul". Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

J) Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. How do you handle it?

Participating
 

Theresia Wynns, 2017 NFHS Basketball Rules Editor said "excess number of players on the court during a live ball" so maybe participating means "on the court"?

So if (1) on the court, (2) observed, (3) excess, and (4) live ball?

All four parameters means a team technical foul.

Thanks for the responses. For the rest of the story. The officials did not award points to team A and negated the foul. Obviously no free throw for team A. Team B shot the technical foul free throw and was awarded the ball at half court.

To paint a little more of the picture. Team A was down three points with about 1-minute remaining in the 4Q.

When you see 6 on the court.

Peace

Ok. Did they do the right thing by taking 2 points off the board and erasing a foul?

Did they go to review?

For HS, I would say you can't undo what has been done. "Coach, you have too many on the floor". Resume game with A shooting 1. And, with only 10 players!

Now for my eval:D

You never mentioned what they did or did not do. You asked when the T gets enforced. You never said anything about what they did with points or other aspects of the play.

I guess it would depend on when they discovered the 6 players on the court. If they saw it and then killed the play and then a shot went up, yeah I could see not counting the point. If it was not discovered until after a few points were scored, no you cannot take off the points. This is not a correctable error situation at all.

Peace

Advantage Not Intended By Rule ...
 

2-10-1: Correctable Errors: Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.

Agree with JRutledge, but with some reservation.

Can we use NFHS 2-3: Referee’s Authority?

NFHS 2-3: Referee’s Authority: The referee must make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

Not really because this situation is "somewhat" covered in the rules (six on court is a technical foul; not listed as a correctable error, in fact, not only is it not listed as correctable, is it an actual error by the official inadvertently setting aside a rule).

But is the situation (extra player illegal advantage) "specifically" covered?

This sticks in my craw: Purpose and intent: A team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.

Billy:

The NCAA Bulletin that you posted above, was that an NCAA Men's or Women's Bulletin?

Thanks,

MTD, Sr.

I asked how it should have been handled. I framed it broadly on purpose to generate some discussion.

I thought I explained it clearly that the 6 players were not discovered until after the foul call.

Citation ...
 

Sorry, not being an NCAA guy myself, when I came across it and saved it I failed to correctly cite it (date, source).

It was an NCAA Men's bulletin. I don't know the date but I do remember it coming out after the play that was referenced was shown all over ESPN.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Sweep The Floor ...
 

We all know who's fault this is.

One of my worst nightmares as an official.

Sometimes we can't control this (player rushing off the bench), but many times we can.

CJP's question was per NCAA Women's Basketball Rules.


From the 2021-22 and 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Edition:

R10 (Fouls and Penalties)-S12 (Technical Fouls)-A2 (Administrative Technical Fouls):

A2f: A team shall not have more than five players legally on the playing court to participate after the ball becomes live.
PENALTY (Art. 2.f ): Penalized when the violation occurs after the ball
becomes live. Two free throws awarded to the offended team, followed by a throw-in at the point of interruption. Administrative technical fouls do not count toward the team-foul total.


From the 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Casebook:

R10 (Fouls and Penalties), Approved Ruling 335:

Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball becomes live with five seconds remaining in the game and Team A leading by two points. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?
RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became live. However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the visual confines of the playing area and still have jurisdiction. The officials shall award Team B two free throws for the administrative technical foul and the game will continue with an overtime when both free throws are successful. This administrative technical foul does not count toward the team-foul total. The penalty for Rule 10-12.2.f applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials must recognize and penalize this infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. Replay may not be used to obtain such knowledge. (Rules 10-12.2.f, 2-4.3, 11-2.1, 3-4.1.c and 5-7.6)


Author's Note (1.0): The 2022-23 NCAA Men's Rules R10-S2-A6 (slightly different Penalty Procedure for returning the Ball to Play) and 2022-23 NCAA Men's Casebook A.R. 286 are the same (word-for-word) as the Women's Rules.


Author's Note (2.0): It should be noted that the wording in the 2022-23 NFHS Basketball Rules R10-S2-A2 is slightly different from the NCAA Men's/Women's Rules:

A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Compared to: A team shall not have more than five players legally on the playing court to participate after the ball becomes live.

Billy: This difference between the two Rules does not help answer your question.


Author's (2.1): And from the 2022-23 NFHS Basketball Casebook we have Casebook 10.2.2 SITUATION:

With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the
clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Author's Note (2.11): NFHS CB Play 10.2.2(b) is similar to the NCAA Men's/Women's Approved Rulings that I have listed. BUT the RULINGS are different:

NFHS: ... since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

NCAA: There is no time limit within which the officials must recognize and penalize this infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction.

The NFHS Ruling states that the Game Official(s) must recognize (inferring that the Game Officials actually observe) the Infraction being committed while the NCAA Ruling states that "the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction."

The question is: What is 'personal knowledge'? And how does that make the NCAA Ruling differ from the NFHS Ruling?


The "Better Half" and I are leaving for a tropical vacation on Thursday and will not return until the Monday after Thanksgiving and I will not be taking a laptop with me; I will take my 'smart' phone and my Kindle but I really do not plan to use them very much, so all history lessons will have wait until I return home. I plan to send an email regarding CJP's Original Situation (NCAA Women's Rules) to Jon Levinson, NCAA Women's Basketball Secretary-Rules Editor, before we leave, meaning I doubt that I will receive a response from Jon before we leave on vacation.

I am going to wish everyone Happy Thanksgiving! And to Jeff: GO BUCKEYES!! BEAT xichigan!!; I already have a YSU win over WIU this Fall, :D!

MTD, Sr.

Billy and Raymond:

I just posted a "short", :p, comment with the relevant NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Rules and Casebook/Approved Ruling citations.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Raymond, please PM about using Tapatalk and how you use it from your phone. Thanks.

Participate ...
 

Rhetorical ???
 

Theses are not rhetorical questions:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1049252

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy ...
 

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

I'll go first because I can go cherry picking. This one is easy.

1) Six players, one in excess.
2) Observed by on-court official.
3) Six players are on the court.
4) The ball is live.

Team technical foul. Clear the lane. Give Team A shooter his second free throw. Two free throws by any Team B player(s). Team B ball at the division line.

All of my other questions (A-E, F-J) involve dead balls, two involve dead balls and running clocks.

No penalty?

Just "fix" it?

Just doesn't seem right, especially the two clock running situations?

Ounce Of Prevention ...
 

From my pregame: Before throwins “sweep the floor”, count five players each team, check the table for substitutes, check team fouls toward bonus situations (communicate with partner on six and nine), good eye contact before putting ball in play. A hand up in the air by the off official means not ready.

This is why I tell off-officials not to raise their hand to mirror the chop until the throw-in is at disposal. If they put it up early, administering official thinks they're indicating to not to begin the throw-in.

Mirror Chop ...
 

Great point.

Here in two-person 100% IAABO mechanics Connecticut, the non-administering official doesn't mirror the chop.

In our rare three-person games, a non-administering official has the option to mirror the chop if the timer may not have a good look at the administering official.

Some of us will "off label" mirror the chop in a two-person game if the timer does not have a good look at the administering official and there are only a few seconds or fractions of a second left, especially in a middle school game that may be timed by a student.

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