Whistle Dead Ball
 

There are only two ways that the referee's whistle causes the ball to become dead. What are they?

I am posing this question to make sure the answer I have is correct and also to be certain there are not more than two ways. Your responses will help in the vetting process.

If the ball is live, an official's whistle always causes the ball to become dead unless there is a try/tap for field goal or free throw.

If there is a violation or a foul, the ball is dead when those things take place most of the time, not when the whistle blows. This is a Basketball Fundamental.

Peace

Inadvertent whistle.

"Advertent" whistle for injury, to converse with scorers, court issue, spectator issue, etc.

Dead Or Alive ...
 

Agree. Basketball Rule Fundamental #16.

The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

Timeout ???
 

How about sounding one's whistle to grant a requested timeout during a live ball?

Already Dead
 

The ball is dead when you recognize the time out not when you blow the whistle. If a coach yells time out and you take a moment to verify its a legitimate request (head coach, correct team, player control) would you award a shot that was launched just before you blew the whistle?

My Answer...
 

The two that I think apply here are an inadvertent whistle and an officials time out. Every other situation that I can think of falls the into the :already dead" category.

Occurring Simultaneously ...
 

Great question Rich1.

In a real game, I (hopefully) wouldn't blow my whistle if the ball had been "released". I always look for the ball after I verify it's a legitimate request.

For a written test question, I'm on the fence, but I'm leaning toward grant, whistle, and dead ball, all occurring simultaneously.

I'm not going to die on this hill, but I would appreciate some further discussion.

Would an inadvertent whistle cause the ball to be dead if a try is in flight?

Count It ...
 

If the ball went in the basket, I would count it, thus, not dead.

Hmmmm
 

No it would not which is what makes this question so tough. So I guess I would have to alter my answer to "inadvertent whistle unless the ball is in flight"

I would not either if I could help it but I have had situations where a time out was clearly called by the coach of the team with the ball and as I am filling my lungs the shot is released. However, it was clear to both myself and the coach that the timeout came before the try started.

Rule 5-5

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when:

f. An official blows the whistle and signals when a foul is committed by a shooter’s teammate before the ball is released for a try for goal; and

g. An official blows the whistle when any floor violation (Rules 9-3 through 9-14) occurs, there is basket interference or goaltending (Rule 9-15) or there is a free-throw violation by the free-thrower’s team (Rule 9-1).


I knew the first one. I'm guessing everyone thinks the ball is already dead for the second

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6-7 The ball becomes dead when: Art 5... An official's whistle is blown.

Nothing else in there I can see about TOs

If true, the ball becomes dead on the whistle -- not "when you recognize the TO" (with exceptions for try, etc)

If a try is in the air, even if the timeout was recognized, then the whistle is meaningless. The ball will not become dead until the try ends, so possession will be undetermined until the try either scores (possession awarded to the non-scoring team with the right to run the endline) or not (possession awarded based on the AP arrow). Timing here is key.

Dueling Banjos ...
 

I did.

6-7-9: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs (exception for opponent leaving court for unauthorized reason, or swinging elbows excessively).

Granting ...
 

... not the decision to grant, but the actual granting.

Already dead
 

Almost all of the time the whistle is simply notifying the players to stop playing because the ball is dead, it is not the whistle that makes creates the dead ball. When the violation occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead. When the foul occurs the ball (not in flight during a try) becomes dead.

If for some reason your whistle falls out of your mouth or is broken creating a longer than usual delay before you blow the whistle, anything that occurred in the time it took between the violation, foul, time-out request, etc. and the sounding of said whistle would not be allowed to stand (ie. counting a basket after a dribbler steps out of bounds and then makes a basket before the whistle gets blown).

This is why I posed the question - if we accept that the ball is already dead in most instances, what would be the situations where it is the actual blowing of the whistle that causes the dead ball. Most of the time there is not much delay between the act and the whistle so its usually not an issue. But, I do enjoy thinking through these sort of queries to strengthen my knowledge.

And, 5-5-1 and 6-7-9 (and probably a few more) do not seem to match Fundamental #16.

Stop The Clock ...
 

... Whistle also "signals" the timekeeper stop the clock.

Contradiction ...
 

I don't see any contradiction between 6-7-9 and Basketball Rule Fundamental #16.

I think that's supposed to be 6-5-1, from NCAAM rules book (NCAAW is the same, but the "f" and "g" might be different.

Note that NCAAW fundamentals do NOT have the "the whistle rarely causes the ball to become dead" clause; NCAAM do not seem to have the fundamentals listed.

Citation ...
 

So Raymond's post is an NCAA citation?

My bad, I should realize that the Forum has become more college-centric over the years.

I just figured that my two-year-old NFHS rulebook on my hard drive was outdated and I was too lazy to walk across the house to get my up-to-date print rulebook.

Pardon My Texas Accent ...
 

I will continue to dance with the girl that I brung to the high school dance because I'm not granting if the ball has been released on a try, thus no exceptions.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Do I get a prize?

You are correct.

Also from Rule 6.

Section 6. Ball Does Not Become Dead Art. 1. A live ball shall not become dead until the try in flight ends when:
a. An official’s whistle is blown;
b. Time expires for a half or extra period; or
c. A foul occurs.

Art. 2. A live ball shall not become dead when a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who starts a try for goal before a foul occurs, provided that time does not expire before the ball is in flight.

Art. 3. A live ball shall not become dead when the ball is in flight on a try for field goal or during a free throw when an opponent swings an arm(s) or elbow(s) excessively without making contact.

Art. 4. While a free throw is in flight, the ball shall not become dead when:
a. An official blows the whistle; or
b. A foul occurs.


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That is true in the NBA. In amateur basketball, the raised hand (with a fist if a foul is ruled) is the signal to stop the clock.

Signal ...
 

NFHS 5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals a foul, held ball, violation, timeout.

Rule doesn't state audio or visual signal, implying a level of redundancy.

Also, at one point NCAA did use precision timing, based on sound of the whistle, not the movement of an arm.

Mechanics
 

Maybe not, but the mechanics state that the hand in the air is the stop clock signal. The whistle is more like an attention getting device, not a signal. If that little pea fell out of your whistle you should be able to yell really loudly and put your hand up with similar effect.

Who Still Uses A Whistle With A Pea ???
 

Agree. Of course, the "yell" is also an audio signal.

In the case of a non-functioning whistle (spit it out, dropped it, etc.) the visual signal alone should stop the clock, and if high school ever has a future replay monitor, one should be able to check the time with a visual signal.

Redundancy ...
 

My IAABO signal chart states that, but my IAABO Mechanics Manual states that one should simultaneously sound one's whistle and give a visual signal.

I don't have access to a NFHS Mechanics Manual.

Whistle ??? What Whistle ???
 

... includes forgetting to put the whistle in my mouth, and not having a whistle (leaving it in my jacket pocket at the table) on my person.

Yeah, hate to admit it, but I've done both.

For The Good Of The Cause ...
 

Definite Knowledge ...
 

... with no high school replay monitor, if I had a "spit my whistle out" (non-functioning whistle) episode, and I got a good look at the clock as I put my arm up, I would have no qualms about adding time to the clock as I had definite knowledge, this being not limited to, but especially in, an end-of-period situation.

Exactly the same, but different
 

NFHS Officials Manual

Violations: Give a sharp single blast of the whistle and fully extend one arm above the head with fingers extended to stop the clock.

Fouls: Sound the whistle with a single sharp blast while raising one hand, fist clenched, straight and high above the head.

Agree to both
 

I was actually just thinking of the chart but do agree that the whistle and the hand go up together according to the actual written section of the mechanics.

Be Sure To Put Up Hands/Fists ...
 

We often work games at the American School For The Deaf, and are always advised by the athletic director to be sure to put up our hands/fists, for both the players, and the timekeeper.

Working games at this site really forces one to concentrate on using good visual signals.

Five Senses ...
 

"Signals"?

It could be a tap on the shoulder. A physical touch. "Excuse me young man, that was a travel".

When I find an old hard boiled egg that rolled to the back of the refrigerator, a "signal" to me that it could be bad is its odor.

I'm trying to think of an odor that officials could emit as a signal, but choose not to bring that to a final conclusion.

How is this relevant? In the rulebook and mechanics manual, "signal" has a specific meaning. A signal is a specific movement of the hand(s) and/or arm(s), occasionally of a foot, to indicate a specific action related to the game (signalling a foul, violation, timeout, or other stoppage of play (held ball/jump ball)).

Rich1 is right that the signal and whistle happen, or at least ought to happen simultaneously. The reason is that the timer can react to the visual signal if he failed to hear the whistle (or the whistle fails to sound). If there is only the whistle, but no visual signal to stop the clock, it is possible that the timer may not stop the clock on time. The reason why this is a moot point at higher levels is because they have special technology allowing the game and shot clocks to stop when the whistle is blown.

At the NFHS and lower college levels, it is important for officials to signal that the game clock is to stop, to avoid such errors. At the Division 1 level, with precision timing, stopping the clock with a signal is important for redundancy, in case the whistle fails to sound, and for instant replay, to correct timing errors.

Signals ...
 

I contend that the word "signal" in the actual rule is used as a generic verb (as opposed to the NFHS and IAABO "signal" charts, in which case it's used as a specific noun), and can be a visual signal, and an audio signal (and I also joked about a physical touch, or an odor, as a signal).

NFHS 5-8: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Signals a foul, held ball, violation, timeout.

While most high school timers may (note that I said "may") be real good at watching for officials to "chop in" time, I seriously doubt they all actually watch for visual signals to stop the clock.

This "special technology" is allowed in high school games (under certain conditions), but is almost never used.

Again, the word "signal" in the actual rule is used as a generic verb and can be a visual signal, and an audio signal.

Also, I agree fully with ilyazhito's statement about audio and visual signaling redundancy.

No signal needed for some violations in NCAAW. All levels.

11-2-1.c.1 d. Determine the correct time to be placed back on the game clock when the referee blows the whistle, signals for the game clock to be stopped, and in the official's judgment, time has elapsed before the game clock stopped. On an out of bounds violation, the official shall determine the elapsed time before the game clock stopped from the time the ball actually hit out-of-bounds.

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A.R. 313. As the official calls a five-second closely guarded violation, the official sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the game clock. The game clock was stopped, however, in the official’s judgment, time elapsed after the signal to stop the clock.

RULING: The official is permitted to go to the official courtside monitor to determine if a timer’s mistake has been committed. When it is determined that time did elapse, the official is permitted to correct the time. (Rule 11-2.1.c.1.c)

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