More Than Five ...
 

Rich1's recent thread on "wrong numbers" brought to mind another technical foul penalty rule language that I often struggle with.

I’m having problems fully understanding the administration of the 10-1-6 (more than five team members participating simultaneously) penalty. If a team has more than five team members participating simultaneously, then a team technical foul is charged. This infraction is penalized if it is discovered by the officials while being violated, in other words, while more than five team members are currently participating as players in the game.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

This below helps but it's not from an "official" NFHS publication:

From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications From In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor:

More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

College ...
 

High School Situations ...
 

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? (Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.)

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

H) Multiple substitutions. All substitutes report and are legally beckoned. Extra team member is confused and stays on court, unnoticed by everybody. Ball put into play. Quick foul occurs. No substitutions. One and one free throws awarded. First free throw made. No substitutions. Extra team member discovered by officials (who don't know when the extra team member entered) during dead ball, clock stopped, after first free throw made while the ball is in the hands of the lead official.

I) After multiple substitutions during which all substitutes reported and were properly beckoned, after the ball becomes live, Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. One of the head coaches is yelling "They have six players on the court, that's a technical foul". Are six team members moving into positions to set up a full court press "participating", especially while the clock is running?

J) Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A. How do you handle it?

Oh good lord.

Somebody please inject a sanctimonious rejoinder about preventing this in the first place with good dead ball officiating and let’s move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I Know It When I See It (Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart) ...
 

Agree.

My questions were in regard to a written test situation, not a real game situation.

Actually more of a rant against poor and confusing NFHS rule language.

I think that I know six players participating when I see it.

Forgot to list this under NCAA Bulletin:

At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.

How do we define observed and discovered?
 

If an official is watching the game is he not observing all of the players? Of course, just because you are observing 11 players does not mean you realize there is a violation.

If you "observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball" then the question is more about whether or not you can address it if you do not realize the violation before the ball become dead.

In many of BillyMac's situations the referees have the opportunity to recognize without a doubt that there were too many players on the court as soon as play was stopped and that the extra player did participate during a live ball. The rule does not say it has to be penalized while the ball is live, only that the excess number of players on the court must be observed during a live ball.

The part the says "penalized if discovered while being violated" does not mean we can only give the T if we see them playing during a live ball. Rather, it is telling us we as officials must have direct knowledge of it being violated during a live ball - we cannot simply take the word of the scorer, an opposing coach, or the crowd.

Additionally, if there is a sixth player on the court who is able to get off the court before any of the referees observe him playing in the game (discover while being violated) then there could be no penalty. In most of BillyMac's situations we are able to discover that there were six players during a live ball by counting the players as soon as the ball becomes dead so this meets the requirement to discover while being violated.

Finally, there is also a difference between having six players on the court after a time-out ready to start the throw in and having six layers after the throw-in begins. If we recognize there are six before the throw in begins we can delay the throw in and send one of them off (which is why you should always count players) but once the throw in begins and the ball is live (even if the clock is not running) then this would be a violation.

Preventative Officiating ...
 

Thanks for reading my rant Rich1.

We should count after every substitution, timeout, and intermission, and if and when we find "extras", we send them off. Happens all the time. Good preventative officiating. No penalty.

The Show Me State ...
 

Agree. I'm not from Missouri, but I'm not taking the word of the scorer, or the coach, I have to see it to believe it.

Am I right Zoochy?

https://tse4.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=269&h=204

(Doubting Thomas, John 20: 24-29)

Don't drag me into this

Doubting Thomas ...
 

I thought that was you, third from the right, in the image I posted.

Isn't every male in Missouri named Thomas?

Common Sense ...
 

This is about the third, or fourth, time, over decades, that I’ve done a deep dive into this situation.

Avoiding rule language that I find confusing, or ambiguous, here’s what I’ve pieced together.

1) The on-court officials must see the infraction occur, or have definite personal knowledge that it did occur, in order to penalize the infraction, not accepting the word of table personnel, coaches, etc.

2) The infraction is for more than five team members currently participating in the game. We all have enough common sense to know what participating means; we know it when we see it.

3) Such a infraction can occur, and/or be called, during a live ball, dead ball, clock running, or clock stopped situation, even if we have definite personal knowledge of an extra player walking off the court into a timeout, or walking off the court into an intermission.

4) Officials must do everything that they can possibly do to prevent situations like these from happening. We should count players after every substitution (same number out, same number in), timeout, and intermission, and if and when we find extras, we send them off with no penalty before starting play.

5) Once the ball is at the disposal of a player (throwin, or free throw) we could penalize the infraction. However, if we spot the extra player immediately after disposal (before the throwin pass is released, or before the free throw is released) we may be able to sound our whistle, take back the ball, and send off the extra player with no penalty.

Comments will be appreciated.

Holes ???
 

Anybody find any "holes' in my guidelines?

Once the ball becomes live (at the disposal of) then the sixth player is participating in the game and should be penalized. However, if I am in this game I am going to blow my whistle and claim that I recognized there were six before you gave the ball to the thrower if I recognize it soon enough.

And, while I have already gone on record as a proponent of counting the players, it is ultimately the coach's (or player's) fault for too many players on the court just as it is the coach's fault if he (or his players) call an extra time-out.

Intermission ...
 

By this I mean that officials realize that something feels odd immediately (split second) after the period ending horn, and then definitely count six players from one team walking off the court during the dead ball time period immediately after the period ending horn, giving them definite personal knowledge that an infraction of more than five team members "participating" in the game had (past tense) just occurred.

Keep in mind that there are no "players" during an intermission, only bench personnel.

Too late to penalize?

I say, "No". It's not too late to penalize. What say you?

Too late for a TECHnicality
 

I think its too late (as a practical matter if not a technical matter) if you have already gone to the locker room at half time, determine there were six and want to penalize it when you come back out. It would be hard to defend the fact that you "have definite personal knowledge of an extra player" if you don't handle it pretty quickly after it occurs.

But I think if you were to huddle up at the horn to discuss it with crew before you go in and determine there were six you could inform the table and coaches of the situation and penalize the offending team.

Technical Foul Free Throws ...
 

Agree.

Followup question. When do you shoot the technical foul free throws?

As part of the previous period (before the intermission), or after the intermission as part of the new period?

I say the former. While the technical foul was called during the intermission, it was for an infraction that occurred during the previous period.

More Questions
 

I had the same thought. Although you should probably shoot them before going to the locker room if you can since it happened to end the 2nd quarter, but if you don't get the chance then it would fall under the umbrella of a correctable error and you could shoot them when you come back out.

However, this begs another question - How do you start the 3rd quarter, stay with the possession arrow or award to the team that shot the free throws because of the tech?

It's really the same question as already asked -- it depends on whether you shoot the FTs as part of the second quarter or third quarter.

Three Intermissions ...
 

... It also could have happened before/during the intermission between the first and second periods, or the intermission between the third and fourth periods.

Question still unanswered
 

My question, regardless of when the free throws are actually administered, is how would you start the next quarter. Since the violation occurred DURING the last quarter does this mean the free throws are considered to also be "during" the quarter and, if so, then do you just go with the possession arrow to start the next quarter?

Or, since the quarter expired before you recognized violation and enforced the penalty, do you consider this to be administered to start the next quarter and then go with the ball out at half court (possession arrow does not change)?

Infraction During Previous Period ...
 

I vote for this.

Asked and answered.

"shooting as part of the second (o third) quarter" is not necessarily the same as "shoot before the teams go to the locker room or after"

Asked but not quite answered
 

Simply restating the same verbiage that did not clarify it enough to help me understand is not exactly answering my question. I still am wondering the correct way to administer this and start the 3rd quarter.

If you shoot the FTs as part of the second quarter, then start the 3rd quarter with the AP arrow. The "throw-in" portion of the penalty for a T does not carry over.

If you shoot the FTs as part of third quarter, then the period starts with the FTs AND the associated throw-in, and the arrow remains the same.

What's It Gonna Be Boy ??? (Paradise by the Dashboard Light, Meat Loaf, 1977) ...
 

bob jenkins: Assuming you believe that it's not too late to penalize, if this happened to you, when would you shoot the free throws, end of the "old" period, or beginning of the "new" period?

Final Answer
 

Based on what I read in rule 5-6-4, since the tech was given after the buzzer the free throws become a part of the next quarter and we would start the new quarter with a throw-in for the team that shot the free throws with no change of the possession arrow (exceptions for 4th quarter & OT not applied in this example).

Is It Too Late To Penalize ???
 

While the technical foul was charged during the intermission, the infraction actually occurred during the live ball immediately preceding the intermission.

While we can debate this (I don't think that my assigner would care a lot about this aspect), the real question is, "Is it too late to penalize?" (my assigner would definitely care a lot about this aspect).

Jumping in this late...

If you don't realize there were 6 players until after the ball becomes dead to end the 2nd quarter, it is too late to penalize. Your whistle doesn't have to beat the horn, but you have to have the aha moment before the horn (or before the try ends if there is a shot in flight). If you go to the locker room and decide that, yes, there were 6 players out there to end the half, it is too late. It wasn't discovered during the live ball...the discovery occurred during halftime.

It doesn't matter when the whistle sounds. You either recognize it in time or not. If you do recognize it, the FTs are part of the 2nd quarter, even if you have the whistle after the ball becomes dead and time has run out.

Confused In Connecticut ...
 

Camron Rust makes a good argument based on the NFHS rule as (poorly) written as well as a NFHS interpretation from Theresia Wynns (via IAABO): An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball ...

However the NCAA Bulletin appears to leave a little "wiggle room": The officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction.

I wish that the NFHS would define "participating".

Participating
 

When they become a player and the ball becomes live they have participated.

Participating ...
 

Sounds good. When do they stop "participating"?

Participate no more
 

When is a player no longer a player? A player stops participating when they become bench personnel, an intermission begins, or the game ends.

Dead Ball ...
 

Is a player "participating" during the dead ball period between a live ball violation (travel) and the subsequent disposal to an inbounder?

Even if one substitute was beckoned in, and one player left the court during that dead ball, are the other "players" (possibly an "extra") not involved with the substitution still "participating" during that dead ball?

Is a player "participating" during a timeout?

Dead Ball ...
 

Live ball?

Discovered during the short (few seconds) dead ball time period between a made basket and disposal? Not discovered (counted) before, not discovered after, but during the dead ball time period? Whistle to "count" prolonged the dead ball and prevented the disposal.

Maybe the official was reacting to a fan yelling, "Six players", and didn't actually count until the ball was dead.

I was referring to the end of quarter situation.

I think a player is participating if they're in the game and the ball has been live. They became a player when the ball became live. They're a player until something happens to make them not a player. Once such an event occurs, it becomes too late to penalize.

Has Been Live ...
 

Sounds good. I like Camron Rust's statement, "the ball has been live". It's better than, "the ball is live".

So if one, during a dead ball, were to count an extra player walking into a granted timeout, it wouldn't be too late to penalize?

Intermissions are different because nobody is a player during an intermission.