More Than Five ...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Based on what I read in rule 5-6-4, since the tech was given after the buzzer the free throws become a part of the next quarter and we would start the new quarter with a throw-in for the team that shot the free throws with no change of the possession arrow (exceptions for 4th quarter & OT not applied in this example).

Jumping in this late...

If you don't realize there were 6 players until after the ball becomes dead to end the 2nd quarter, it is too late to penalize. Your whistle doesn't have to beat the horn, but you have to have the aha moment before the horn (or before the try ends if there is a shot in flight). If you go to the locker room and decide that, yes, there were 6 players out there to end the half, it is too late. It wasn't discovered during the live ball...the discovery occurred during halftime.

It doesn't matter when the whistle sounds. You either recognize it in time or not. If you do recognize it, the FTs are part of the 2nd quarter, even if you have the whistle after the ball becomes dead and time has run out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This below helps but it's not from an "official" NFHS publication: From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications From In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor: More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NCAA Bulletin: In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation: SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling? RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6). Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul.However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you don't realize there were 6 players until after the ball becomes dead to end the 2nd quarter, it is too late to penalize. Your whistle doesn't have to beat the horn, but you have to have the aha moment before the horn ... You either recognize it in time or not.

Camron Rust makes a good argument based on the NFHS rule as (poorly) written as well as a NFHS interpretation from Theresia Wynns (via IAABO): An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball ...

However the NCAA Bulletin appears to leave a little "wiggle room": The officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction.

I wish that the NFHS would define "participating".

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I wish that the NFHS would define "participating".

When they become a player and the ball becomes live they have participated.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

When they become a player and the ball becomes live they have participated.

Sounds good. When do they stop "participating"?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good. When do they stop "participating"?

When is a player no longer a player? A player stops participating when they become bench personnel, an intermission begins, or the game ends.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

When is a player no longer a player? A player stops participating when they become bench personnel, an intermission begins, or the game ends.

Is a player "participating" during the dead ball period between a live ball violation (travel) and the subsequent disposal to an inbounder?

Even if one substitute was beckoned in, and one player left the court during that dead ball, are the other "players" (possibly an "extra") not involved with the substitution still "participating" during that dead ball?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members (on the court) ...

Is a player "participating" during a timeout?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle.

J) Made basket by Team A, immediate time-out by Team A is granted by the officials, officials notice six team members departing the floor for Team A.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... It wasn't discovered during the live ball ... You either recognize it in time or not.

Live ball?

Discovered during the short (few seconds) dead ball time period between a made basket and disposal? Not discovered (counted) before, not discovered after, but during the dead ball time period? Whistle to "count" prolonged the dead ball and prevented the disposal.

Maybe the official was reacting to a fan yelling, "Six players", and didn't actually count until the ball was dead.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Live ball?

Discovered during the short (few seconds) dead ball time period between a made basket and disposal? Not discovered (counted) before, not discovered after, but during the dead ball time period? Whistle to "count" prolonged the dead ball and prevented the disposal.

Maybe the official was reacting to a fan yelling, "Six players", and didn't actually count until the ball was dead.

I was referring to the end of quarter situation.

I think a player is participating if they're in the game and the ball has been live. They became a player when the ball became live. They're a player until something happens to make them not a player. Once such an event occurs, it becomes too late to penalize.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think a player is participating if they're in the game and the ball has been live. They became a player when the ball became live. They're a player until something happens to make them not a player. Once such an event occurs, it becomes too late to penalize.

Originally Posted by Rich1

A player stops participating when they become bench personnel, an intermission begins, or the game ends.

Sounds good. I like Camron Rust's statement, "the ball has been live". It's better than, "the ball is live".

So if one, during a dead ball, were to count an extra player walking into a granted timeout, it wouldn't be too late to penalize?

Intermissions are different because nobody is a player during an intermission.