More Than Five ...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich1

My question, regardless of when the free throws are actually administered, is how would you start the next quarter. Since the violation occurred DURING the last quarter does this mean the free throws are considered to also be "during" the quarter and, if so, then do you just go with the possession arrow to start the next quarter?

Asked and answered.

"shooting as part of the second (o third) quarter" is not necessarily the same as "shoot before the teams go to the locker room or after"

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Asked and answered.

"shooting as part of the second (o third) quarter" is not necessarily the same as "shoot before the teams go to the locker room or after"

Simply restating the same verbiage that did not clarify it enough to help me understand is not exactly answering my question. I still am wondering the correct way to administer this and start the 3rd quarter.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Simply restating the same verbiage that did not clarify it enough to help me understand is not exactly answering my question. I still am wondering the correct way to administer this and start the 3rd quarter.

If you shoot the FTs as part of the second quarter, then start the 3rd quarter with the AP arrow. The "throw-in" portion of the penalty for a T does not carry over.

If you shoot the FTs as part of third quarter, then the period starts with the FTs AND the associated throw-in, and the arrow remains the same.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... officials realize that something feels odd immediately (split second) after the period ending horn, and then definitely count six players from one team walking off the court during the dead ball time period immediately after the period ending horn, giving them definite personal knowledge that an infraction of more than five team members "participating" in the game had (past tense) just occurred.

Keep in mind that there are no "players" during an intermission, only bench personnel.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you shoot the FTs as part of the second quarter, then start the 3rd quarter with the AP arrow. The "throw-in" portion of the penalty for a T does not carry over.

If you shoot the FTs as part of third quarter, then the period starts with the FTs AND the associated throw-in, and the arrow remains the same.

bob jenkins: Assuming you believe that it's not too late to penalize, if this happened to you, when would you shoot the free throws, end of the "old" period, or beginning of the "new" period?

[Rich1]

Based on what I read in rule 5-6-4, since the tech was given after the buzzer the free throws become a part of the next quarter and we would start the new quarter with a throw-in for the team that shot the free throws with no change of the possession arrow (exceptions for 4th quarter & OT not applied in this example).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Based on what I read in rule 5-6-4, since the tech was given after the buzzer the free throws become a part of the next quarter and we would start the new quarter with a throw-in for the team that shot the free throws with no change of the possession arrow ...

While the technical foul was charged during the intermission, the infraction actually occurred during the live ball immediately preceding the intermission.

While we can debate this (I don't think that my assigner would care a lot about this aspect), the real question is, "Is it too late to penalize?" (my assigner would definitely care a lot about this aspect).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Based on what I read in rule 5-6-4, since the tech was given after the buzzer the free throws become a part of the next quarter and we would start the new quarter with a throw-in for the team that shot the free throws with no change of the possession arrow (exceptions for 4th quarter & OT not applied in this example).

Jumping in this late...

If you don't realize there were 6 players until after the ball becomes dead to end the 2nd quarter, it is too late to penalize. Your whistle doesn't have to beat the horn, but you have to have the aha moment before the horn (or before the try ends if there is a shot in flight). If you go to the locker room and decide that, yes, there were 6 players out there to end the half, it is too late. It wasn't discovered during the live ball...the discovery occurred during halftime.

It doesn't matter when the whistle sounds. You either recognize it in time or not. If you do recognize it, the FTs are part of the 2nd quarter, even if you have the whistle after the ball becomes dead and time has run out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This below helps but it's not from an "official" NFHS publication: From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications From In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor: More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NCAA Bulletin: In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation: SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling? RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6). Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul.However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you don't realize there were 6 players until after the ball becomes dead to end the 2nd quarter, it is too late to penalize. Your whistle doesn't have to beat the horn, but you have to have the aha moment before the horn ... You either recognize it in time or not.

Camron Rust makes a good argument based on the NFHS rule as (poorly) written as well as a NFHS interpretation from Theresia Wynns (via IAABO): An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball ...

However the NCAA Bulletin appears to leave a little "wiggle room": The officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction.

I wish that the NFHS would define "participating".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... It wasn't discovered during the live ball ... You either recognize it in time or not.

Live ball?

Discovered during the short (few seconds) dead ball time period between a made basket and disposal? Not discovered (counted) before, not discovered after, but during the dead ball time period? Whistle to "count" prolonged the dead ball and prevented the disposal.

Maybe the official was reacting to a fan yelling, "Six players", and didn't actually count until the ball was dead.