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-   -   Why Rules Are Changed ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105674-why-rules-changed.html)

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:45am

Why Rules Are Changed ...
 
Observed two of my friends in the state tournament last night. This is what they had to deal with (sorry about the blurred photo). Black numbers with a thin blue border on a black jersey.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...be5a49df_m.jpg

NFHS 2019-20 Rule Change (3-4-3-E-2) Contrasting Number: The color of the number cannot be the same color as the body of the jersey, though bordered by a contrasting color, because it is difficult to see (Effective 2024-25).

bob jenkins Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:48am

That is illegal even under the current rules.

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:13am

Clearly Visible ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1047391)
That is illegal even under the current rules.

"Clearly visible"?

3-4-3-E: Numbers must adhere to the following: The style of the number must be clearly visible and conform to one of the following:
1. A solid contrasting color with no more than two solid color ¼-inch borders around the entire number. If the team jersey color is used as a border, it must be counted as one of the allowed colors.
2. The team jersey color itself when bordered with not more than two ¼-inch solid border(s) contrasting with the team jersey color.
3. A solid contrasting color with a “shadow” trim of a contrasting color on part of the number not to exceed ½ inch in width and may be used with one 1/4-inch border.

ilyazhito Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047390)
Observed two of my friends in the state tournament last night. This is what they had to deal with (sorry about the blurred photo). Black numbers with a thin blue border on a black jersey.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...be5a49df_m.jpg

NFHS 2019-20 Rule Change (3-4-3-E-2) Contrasting Number: The color of the number cannot be the same color as the body of the jersey, though bordered by a contrasting color, because it is difficult to see (Effective 2024-25).

I would not allow a team to play with those jerseys, because I can't tell what the number is. They would have to provide a different set of jerseys (or the home team could lend them a set of legal dark-colored jerseys) for the game to start. This is allowed under Rule 2-3.

JRutledge Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047397)
I would not allow a team to play with those jerseys, because I can't tell what the number is. They would have to provide a different set of jerseys (or the home team could lend them a set of legal dark-colored jerseys) for the game to start. This is allowed under Rule 2-3.

You are forfeiting the game? Because what if they do not have other jerseys? Isn't there a remedy for this already?

Peace

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:48am

Remedy ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047398)
You are forfeiting the game? Because what if they do not have other jerseys? Isn't there a remedy for this already?

No forfeit. Direct technical foul to the head coach (if one so desires).

10-6-4: The head coach must not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform

bob jenkins Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047393)
"Clearly visible"?

3-4-3-E: Numbers must adhere to the following: The style of the number must be clearly visible and conform to one of the following:
1. A solid contrasting color with no more than two solid color ¼-inch borders around the entire number. If the team jersey color is used as a border, it must be counted as one of the allowed colors.
2. The team jersey color itself when bordered with not more than two ¼-inch solid border(s) contrasting with the team jersey color.
3. A solid contrasting color with a “shadow” trim of a contrasting color on part of the number not to exceed ½ inch in width and may be used with one 1/4-inch border.

Right rule. Wrong reference.

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:56am

Good For The Goose, Good For The Gander ...
 
Here are their home uniforms, white numbers with a blue border on white jerseys. Much easier to see the numbers compared to their road uniforms, but will definitely be illegal in 2024-25.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...9d157a8d_m.jpg

Zoochy Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047400)
No forfeit. Direct technical foul to the head coach (if one so desires).

10-6-4: The head coach must not permit a team member to participate while wearing an illegal uniform

It's not an Illegal uniform until 2024-25 season.
I saw teams in my area with Black uniforms with Black numbers and a thin Orange border around the number.
Oh Well.....

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:00pm

Pantone Color Chart ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1047402)
Right rule. Wrong reference.

Blue doesn't contrast enough with black? Let me whip out my official NFHS Pantone color chart.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ca2cdd01_m.jpg

Sorry, wrong chart.

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:01pm

Always Listen To bob ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoochy (Post 1047404)
It's not an Illegal uniform until 2024-25 season.

Not according to bob jenkins.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/20/49/0d/2...age-prints.jpg

ilyazhito Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047398)
You are forfeiting the game? Because what if they do not have other jerseys? Isn't there a remedy for this already?

Peace

I have provided several solutions. They could also play in a set of PE pinnies, as long as the numbers contrast with the body color of the jerseys. If the home team has the issue, I would ask them to get an older set of uniforms that have contrasting numbers, or else light-colored PE pinnies. If the practice jerseys have numbers, we could use those as well.

I would make sure that both teams have legal uniforms. If legal uniforms cannot be secured, the coach gets a technical foul.

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:15pm

Play Ball ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047408)
If legal uniforms cannot be secured, the coach gets a technical foul.

That's your remedy (if you so desire). Play ball.

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:22pm

Contrast ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047408)
... the numbers contrast with the body color of the jerseys ...

Not necessarily so in 2021-22. One has to factor in the border (it must contrast with the jersey color if the number color is the same as the jersey color). See my "home jersey" post and photo above (legal in 2021-22, blue border definitely contrasts with white number and white jersey).

Zoochy Wed Mar 09, 2022 01:28pm

Uniforms
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvz_eMDYuwc

ilyazhito Wed Mar 09, 2022 02:50pm

The home jerseys are legal by current standards, but the away jerseys are not, because there is no clear visible contrast between the borders and the jersey body color. If the coach attempted to have the team play with the away jerseys, and there were no other dark jerseys that could work, he's getting T'd for illegal uniforms.

bob jenkins Wed Mar 09, 2022 03:18pm

The state tournament should not be the first time this issue is being raised. And, maybe the team has a waiver from the state.

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 03:27pm

Kick The Can ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1047413)
The state tournament should not be the first time this issue is being raised. And, maybe the team has a waiver from the state.

Both teams were from outside our local area. My two friends didn't even broach the subject with the coaches (so no information to offer about a possible waiver), figuring that, over ten-plus road games, some out of area officials must have, at least, questioned the jersey and number color combination. They did however (pregame on the court) discuss that this color combination would be illegal in a few years.

Road team lost at the buzzer, so they won't be causing any more headaches this year. Next year? Who knows?

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2022 05:53pm

Real Game Situation ...
 
Let's make this a realistic, real game, situation; not a rulebook, written exam situation.

One notices these black on black blue border road jerseys in the layup lines. It's a varsity 2021-22 mid-season regular season game in your local area. We'll assume that offending team doesn't have replacement jerseys, and we'll also assume that one knows and agrees with bob jenkin's interpretation. You have not received any prior knowledge of this situation. It was a total surprise. You're the referee. Your partner doesn't know if the ball is inflated or stuffed.

Do you?

1) Charge the offending head coach with a direct technical foul for illegal uniforms, two free throws to the offended team's best free throw shooter, seat belt to the offending head coach, start game with offending team throwin.

2) Discuss with the offending team head coach (and only this coach) the possibility that these my be illegal uniforms, do not charge a technical foul, tell the coach that you will contact your assigner, and that his athletic director should contact the state association, start the game as usual.

3) Discuss with both head coaches the possibility that these my be illegal uniforms and leave it up the offended head coach as how the game should progress. Tell the offending coach (no matter what) that you will contact your assigner, and that his athletic director should contact the state association.

4) Totally ignore the situation as if it never happened.

5) Ignore because one disagrees with bob jenkin's interpretation, worry about it in 2024-25.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.r...=0&w=273&h=170

crosscountry55 Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047408)
I have provided several solutions. They could also play in a set of PE pinnies, as long as the numbers contrast with the body color of the jerseys. If the home team has the issue, I would ask them to get an older set of uniforms that have contrasting numbers, or else light-colored PE pinnies. If the practice jerseys have numbers, we could use those as well.

I would make sure that both teams have legal uniforms. If legal uniforms cannot be secured, the coach gets a technical foul.


I’m not sure I would love being your assigner.

I’m sure you’re a wonderful person, but on the court your apparent inability to find the gray between the black and white must be utterly confounding at times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun Mar 13, 2022 03:25pm

Answered ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047418)
One notices these black on black blue border road jerseys in the layup lines. It's a varsity 2021-22 mid-season regular season game in your local area. We'll assume that offending team doesn't have replacement jerseys, and we'll also assume that one knows and agrees with bob jenkin's interpretation. You have not received any prior knowledge of this situation. It was a total surprise. You're the referee. Your partner doesn't know if the ball is inflated or stuffed.
Do you?
1) Charge the offending head coach with a direct technical foul for illegal uniforms, two free throws to the offended team's best free throw shooter, seat belt to the offending head coach, start game with offending team throwin.
2) Discuss with the offending team head coach (and only this coach) the possibility that these my be illegal uniforms, do not charge a technical foul, tell the coach the you will contact your assigner, and that his athletic director should contact the state association, start the game as usual.
3) Discuss with both head coaches the possibility that these my be illegal uniforms and leave it up the offended head coach as how the game should progress. Tell the offending coach the you will contact your assigner, and that his athletic director should contact the state association.
4) Totally ignore the situation as if it never happened.
5) Ignore because one disagrees with bob jenkin's interpretation, worry about it in 2024-25.

These are not rhetorical questions.

I'm likely going with door number two.

Anybody else care to share?

I think we already know lyazhito's answer.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP._...=0&w=239&h=179

ilyazhito Mon Mar 14, 2022 01:43pm

I would ask the offended team if they have dark jerseys. If they have legal dark jerseys, we play and report the game to the assigner. If not, then I will go with option 1. At least I won't get in trouble with the chain of command for following the rules. If I have to write things up, I will say that I have pursued and exhausted all options to allow the teams to play legally before I had to resort to the rulebook solution for illegal uniforms. I cannot allow the game to be played without sanction if I am unable to identify the players on the court.

BillyMac Mon Mar 14, 2022 02:38pm

Contrasting Colors ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047480)
At least I won't get in trouble with the chain of command for following the rules.

Normally I would agree with ilyazhito's statement above, if one is to err, err on the side of the rulebook.

But this issue is not a fully black and white issue. Sure, if the was a uniform number was six, that would definitely be illegal. If this was 2024-25, the jersey in question in this thread would definitely be illegal.

But it's 2021-22. Is the color dark blue a contrasting color to black? As much as I respect bob jenkins, I'm not sure that I would charge a technical foul in a state tournament game solely based on his opinion regarding contrasting colors. Especially when these road uniforms have obviously passed the "smell test" all season long. Better to leave it up to my assigner and the state association.

Contrasting Color: A variance from a color of two steps or more in value ... on the Munsell Color Order System (hue, value, and chroma).

Is dark blue one step or two steps varied from black?

bwburke94 Sun Mar 20, 2022 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047418)
Let's make this a realistic, real game, situation; not a rulebook, written exam situation.

One notices these black on black blue border road jerseys in the layup lines. It's a varsity 2021-22 mid-season regular season game in your local area. We'll assume that offending team doesn't have replacement jerseys, and we'll also assume that one knows and agrees with bob jenkin's interpretation. You have not received any prior knowledge of this situation. It was a total surprise. You're the referee. Your partner doesn't know if the ball is inflated or stuffed.

Do you?

1) Charge the offending head coach with a direct technical foul for illegal uniforms, two free throws to the offended team's best free throw shooter, seat belt to the offending head coach, start game with offending team throwin.

2) Discuss with the offending team head coach (and only this coach) the possibility that these my be illegal uniforms, do not charge a technical foul, tell the coach that you will contact your assigner, and that his athletic director should contact the state association, start the game as usual.

3) Discuss with both head coaches the possibility that these my be illegal uniforms and leave it up the offended head coach as how the game should progress. Tell the offending coach (no matter what) that you will contact your assigner, and that his athletic director should contact the state association.

4) Totally ignore the situation as if it never happened.

5) Ignore because one disagrees with bob jenkin's interpretation, worry about it in 2024-25.

Ah, you're in test-writer mode. I caught your little trick on 1).

With that being said, unless I'm 100% sure it's a technical foul, I'm not charging a technical foul.

BillyMac Sun Mar 20, 2022 03:05pm

Ignoring ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bwburke94 (Post 1047617)
... unless I'm 100% sure it's a technical foul, I'm not charging a technical foul.

Ignoring, or sending it up the chain of command?

bwburke94 Sun Mar 20, 2022 03:08pm

As a non-official, I'm not sure how to handle these matters. I can't ignore it, but I'm not confident enough to charge the technical foul.

BillyMac Sun Mar 20, 2022 03:23pm

Mixed Metaphors ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bwburke94 (Post 1047620)
As a non-official, I'm not sure how to handle these matters. I can't ignore it, but I'm not confident enough to charge the technical foul.

I'm kicking the can up the ladder.

Especially without a Munsell Color Order System Chart in my back pocket.

Rich1 Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:23pm

Rules do not apply here
 
One of the problems we face in Texas is that when we get to the State tournament the governing body will tell officials not to enforce the uniform rules. For instance, they will allow a player in a white uniform to wear red leggings and/or will not require all of the players to match colors for headbands, sleeves, etc.

They are the ones sanctioning the event so we have been told by our association to just go along with it since it does not affect the game play. We do it one way all season and are chastised for not enforcing these rules only to do it differently when we get to the highest level. It is very frustrating!

BillyMac Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:44pm

The Land Of Steady Habits ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich1 (Post 1047788)
One of the problems we face in Texas is that when we get to the State tournament the governing body will tell officials not to enforce the uniform rules.

Opposite here in Connecticut. Officials who will occasionally overlook fashion issues in their regular season varsity games (but are selected by coaches to officiate the state tournament because they can officiate the hell out of a game) are told by the state association to enforce all fashion rules in the state tournament.

ilyazhito Sun Mar 27, 2022 02:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich1 (Post 1047788)
One of the problems we face in Texas is that when we get to the State tournament the governing body will tell officials not to enforce the uniform rules. For instance, they will allow a player in a white uniform to wear red leggings and/or will not require all of the players to match colors for headbands, sleeves, etc.

They are the ones sanctioning the event so we have been told by our association to just go along with it since it does not affect the game play. We do it one way all season and are chastised for not enforcing these rules only to do it differently when we get to the highest level. It is very frustrating!

Why does the UIL do this? I'm surprised that they would actively tell officials to not enforce uniform rules, considering those are an NFHS point of emphasis (and the UIL is an NFHS member).

Rich1 Sun Mar 27, 2022 02:43pm

It is what it is
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047798)
Why does the UIL do this? I'm surprised that they would actively tell officials to not enforce uniform rules, considering those are an NFHS point of emphasis (and the UIL is an NFHS member).

I've been told that it is supposed to be a showcase of talent and that they do not want to tell a player (or team) that they can't play because it is such a meaningful game. Since ultimately most uniform rules have no impact on who scores the most points they choose not to worry about them. Also, it seems that the State tournament is a UIL event that uses NFHS rules rather than an NFHS sanctioned event.

Additionally, we have our "Texas exceptions" for things like mechanics so I guess there is no reason why we can't have Texas exceptions to some of the rules.

I don't like it because we are told by our association all season that not enforcing these rules could impact our being chosen to work the State games but then they don't enforce it.

ilyazhito Sun Mar 27, 2022 03:51pm

I agree. That is hypocritical on UIL's part.
I would enforce the rules, and then let the chips fall where they may. I doubt that the UIL would pull an official right in the middle of a game. I might not get invited back to a state tournament, but I'll at least have done it once.

Raymond Sun Mar 27, 2022 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047800)
I agree. That is hypocritical on UIL's part.
I would enforce the rules, and then let the chips fall where they may. I doubt that the UIL would pull an official right in the middle of a game. I might not get invited back to a state tournament, but I'll at least have done it once.

If the governing body says not to enforce a certain uniform rule then you don't enforce it. Don't be a renegade, don't be a martyr. It would not be good for your career to be known as an official who cannot adjust.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun Mar 27, 2022 05:14pm

Never Say Never, Never Say Always ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047800)
I doubt that the UIL would pull an official right in the middle of a game.

https://www.montgomeryindependent.co...79aec5a44.html

Camron Rust Sun Mar 27, 2022 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1047802)
If the governing body says not to enforce a certain uniform rule then you don't enforce it. Don't be a renegade, don't be a martyr. It would not be good for your career to be known as an official who cannot adjust.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

The only thing I'd add is if that is the expectation at the tourney, they should communicate it as the expectation all season. If they're going to modify/waive rules, do it consistently.

BillyMac Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:20am

Send In The Clowns (Frank Sinatra, 1973) ...
 
While many us can debate the merits of the various NFHS Fashion Police rules, it's too bad that a high school state tournament game has to look like child's recreation league practice on a weeknight in a local elementary school cafeteria/auditorium/gymnasium with a tile floor.

https://live.staticflickr.com/5251/5...ca118730_m.jpg

ilyazhito Mon Mar 28, 2022 01:55pm

That makes sense. By selective enforcement of the fashion rules, the UIL has turned the Texas basketball state championships into a clown show.

The uniform rules are there for a reason, to identify one team from another and to make sure each player has legible numbers. That is why I would have issued a technical foul to the team with dark blue jerseys, black borders, and shadow dark blue numbers. The spirit of the uniform rules is broken (the numbers are illegible), thus the uniforms are illegal per the God rule (Rule 2-3).

JRutledge Mon Mar 28, 2022 02:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047815)
That makes sense. By selective enforcement of the fashion rules, the UIL has turned the Texas basketball state championships into a clown show.

The uniform rules are there for a reason, to identify one team from another and to make sure each player has legible numbers. That is why I would have issued a technical foul to the team with dark blue jerseys, black borders, and shadow dark blue numbers. The spirit of the uniform rules is broken (the numbers are illegible), thus the uniforms are illegal per the God rule (Rule 2-3).

We already have a rule to address uniforms. We have very specific things that can be worn and this jersey is legal at this moment and will be illegal in a few years. So you are arbitrarily taking what you feel is right and giving a penalty to something that is already directly addressed.

Again not a very good career move if you ask me. The supervisor has to be able to support you in the usage of a rule. What you are suggesting is a personal opinion about a very specific rule and requirement.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Mar 28, 2022 02:37pm

Opinion ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047817)
We have very specific things that can be worn and this jersey is legal at this moment and will be illegal in a few years.

Agree. The decision that the color of the border, dark blue, contrasts, or doesn't contrast, with the color of the number and jersey, black, is an opinion. This team was apparently allowed to previously wear these jerseys in several regular season road games. Based on a unilateral opinion, I will not be starting a state tournament game with a technical foul.

But I will not ignore. I will report the situation to my assigner after the game. It's up to him if he wants to bump up the issue, or not bump up the issue, to the state association.

JRutledge Mon Mar 28, 2022 02:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047818)
Agree. The decision that the color of the border, dark blue, contrasts, or doesn't contrast, with the color of the number and jersey, black, is an opinion. This team was apparently allowed to previously wear these jerseys in several regular season road games. Based on a unilateral opinion, I will not be starting a state tournament game with a technical foul.

But I will not ignore. I will report the situation to my assigner after the game. It's up to him if he wants to bump up the issue, or not bump up the issue, to the state association.

If you want to address a difficult situation to the people that are above you, no issue. But we have rules that do not really clearly address this as a Technical foul. That is really my only point.

Peace


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