Shot Clocks
 

Unlike game clocks that show tenths of a second, I know shot clocks only show whole numbers.
But do they operate the same way? As soon as the shot clock starts, it goes from displaying 30 straight to 29. But we know a full second has not passed at this point. It is really 29 +up to 9 tenths.
So if a shot clock shows '0', has a violation occurred? Or does it have .9 more seconds left?
I ask this because of the end of regulation of the Oklahoma State University v Baylor game.
When shot clock hit '0', there was .7 still remaining on the game clock. OSU put up a shot that went in the basket between the shot clock terminating and the game clock terminating.
Shot clock shows 0. (Game clock shows .7)
OSU attempts a try
Game clock/Horn/lights on backboard illuminate.
Ball goes in the basket

The crew determined a shot clock violation and put .7 on the clock and gave the ball to Baylor.

Thoughts/Comments

The Final Countdown (Europe, 1986) ...
 

Haven't we discussed this before, but for game clocks?

Question came up as old fashioned mechanical scoreboards (click, click, click) became modern digital scoreboards, and when tenths of a second began being displayed. Some posters commented that some scoreboards showed a slightly different time on the scoreboard versus the console.

So show tenths under 5 or 10 seconds.

In general (and there are some exceptions), the shot clocks operate differently from the game clocks. They are "round up" -- so it will show 30 for a second and then turn to 29. Thus, when it hits zero the horn sounds immediately.

That is why the shot clock horn (or lights, if the shot clock has separate lights on it) determines shot clock violations. If the shot clock horn goes off before the shot is released, then we have a violation. That is why it is important as the referee before the game to listen carefully to both the shot clock and game clock horns. This will allow one to later pick up on the difference in close situations like the OP.

For the same reason, officials with a shot clock are advised to call a 10-second violation when the shot clock hits 19, because it is quite possible that a shot clock that is exactly at 21.0 will go down to 20 when the shot and game clocks start. If an official doesn't realize this, he may call the 10-second violation early, because the rule states that it is a violation to be in continuous possession of a ball in a team's on backcourt for more than 10 seconds. If the shot clock is at 19.9 (19 seconds showing), the more than criterion is satisfied, and thus there is a violation. For those using a 24-second shot clock and an 8-second count in the backcourt, the magic number is 15 seconds, because a shot clock won't show 10ths until the last 5 seconds.

NCAAW (and I think NCAAM) call it when the clock hits 20 -- for the reasons I mentioned in my post above.

I stand corrected. Daktronics shot clocks usually have a delay (they don't go immediately to 29), so assuming they were reset properly, the violation would occur at 20 (or 16, if a 24-second shot clock is used). If a specific manufacturer's shot clocks go immediately to 29, that is a programming error and needs to be corrected.

Rounding Up ...
 

This is exactly what we discussed on the Forum (a very long time ago).

Tried to search for old posts, but was unsuccessful.

What did the game clock read when that particular Shot Clock cycle began? Was it 30.7 or above for a 30-second cycle or 20.7 or above for a 20-second cycle? By rule they can use the monitor to ascertain whether or not there was a violation.

Touch Or Possession ...
 

And yet the NFHS has the shot clock start on an inbounds touch, not an inbounds possession?

Officials' General Duties: Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). The Shot-Clock Operator Shall: Start the shot clock when: A player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in.

As does NCAA

The play-by-play reflects differently than described in the OP.

0:35 Adam Flagler missed Three Point Jumper. 60 - 60
0:35 Bryce Williams Defensive Rebound. 60 - 60
0:24 Oklahoma State Timeout 60 - 60
0:02 Bryce Thompson missed Jumper. 60 - 60
0:02 Isaac Likekele Offensive Rebound. 60 - 60
0:01 Oklahoma State Turnover. 60 - 60
0:00 End of 2nd half 60 - 60

NCAA Inbounds Touch ???
 

I know more about rocket surgery than I do NCAA rules, but isn't the ten second rule different in NCAA compared to NFHS? In NCAA, doesn't the ten second count start on an inbounds touch?

I did find a video on YouTube to try to see the situation you are asking. It is a condensed video, thus cannot see the game clock when the final 30 sec shot clock begins.
But upon watching this YouTube video, I do hear 2 separate horns. The 1st horn does delay slightly after the shot clock displays '0' and the second when the game clock shows 0.00
The ball appears to be in the hands of the OSU player when the 1st horn sounds
Go to 8:00 on the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiXhLnaj6kA
Also it looks like the ball passes over the backboard on the try

If you stop/start the video you can see the game clock reads 2.7 while the shot clock reads 2. The shot clock still reads 2 when the game clock reads 2.5 and 2.0. Therefore, any shot taken after the game clock read 0.7 would be a violation.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hiXhLnaj6kA?start=480" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[QUOTE=BillyMac;1047072]And yet the NFHS has the shot clock start on an inbounds touch, not an inbounds possession?



I don't quite see the difference here.

You've asked/stated this quite a few times. Do a search and you'll find where it's been answered quite a few times.

NFHS Conflict ...
 

NCAA (if I'm correct): Actual ten second rule (inbounds touch) matches how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

NFHS: Actual ten second rule (inbounds possession) does not match how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

Old Debate ...
 

If the NFHS rule is to (as shown on nfhs.org) "Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). " then the practical effect is the same, at least for possessions that start with a full shot clock.

There are some differences (at least with NCAAW) when the ball gets knocked OOB by the defense, or there's a held ball (with the arrow favoring the offense) or the offense calls a TO. And, ilya is *technically* correct that if the 30-second shot clock shows, say, 25 AND the team is entitled to a new 10-seconds, the whistle shouldn't be blown until the shotclock shows14. Interps might make what is technically correct still wrong by rule.

All the more reason I want no parts of a shot clock in HS. NFHS can't even write the rule to be consistent with its own rules, or at least note an exception, combined with HS officials who'll be making up their own interpretations.

I don't even think the NCAA-Men's rule and case books even address what we should do when we start a new 10-second under 30 seconds. It happens enough that it should be addressed.

Depriving Team Of A Chance To Win The Game ...
 

You think so?

Tell that to the Team A head coach.

I just realized that the shot clock would be turned off. But one should still be able get the point.

Yes. There was TC during the throw-in.

And, yes, I know the general thought is that this is used only for TC fouls, but since a shot clock wasn't in effect when that statement was made and is (in some states) in effect now, consider it also in effect for 10-second violations -- but not for BC violations.

I agree that if the shotclock is more widely used, the rules should be clarified

BillyMac,
Once again you have hijacked a thread and made it your personal agenda.

Going back to the original topic... Lets set the game clock to 1:00.0 and reset the shot clock. Start them both at the same time and see how they perform. Do a quick stop. Game clock reads 59.7 and shot clock still at 30, then there is a delay with the shot clock as stated by bob jenkins. If shot clock reads 29, then there is not a delay. Thus when shot clock reads '0', there is actually up to .9 left before a violation occurs.

Better Example ...
 

Better extreme example.

State high school championship final game. Thirty-five second shot clock used. Per NFHS rules, officials use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count. Team B 65, Team A 64. Fourth period. Thirty-six seconds left in game. Both teams come out of a timeout after made basket. Thirty-five seconds on shot clock. Team A, with no timeouts remaining, inbounds in their backcourt. Inbounder A1 passes to A2, in the backcourt, who muffs (shot clock legally starts on inbounds touch) the ball away, but eventually, after two seconds pass (with deflections but no control by either team), secures control of the ball by holding it (game clock legally starts on inbounds possession) and then begins to dribble. Facing strong defensive pressure in his backcourt, A2 is still in his backcourt when the shot clock is at 25 seconds and the trail official calls (only based on the shot clock) a ten second violation on Team A. Team A head coach politely argues that Team A only had "control" of the ball for eight seconds (game clock now at 28 seconds) in the backcourt, quoting 9-8 and 4-2, and should not have had the ten second violation called.

Agree. Hopefully, like Raymond, I'll be retired by then.

Hijacked Thread ...
 

Sorry Zoochy. ilyazhito's post struck a nerve, and I didn't expect to have to follow up with bob jenkins.

I did try to search for earlier threads on (game) clocks rounding up, or rounding down, but failed in my attempt.

Thread Course Adjustment ...
 

While I'm still apologetic, it was probably a good thing that I replied to ilyazhito's possibly confusing post. He cited a NFHS rule (it is a violation to be in continuous possession of a ball in a team's on backcourt for more than 10 seconds) in a thread about NCAA (NCAA ten second rule is not continuous possession) shot clocks. While I may have turned the thread a little, I may have saved it from going completely sideways.

Hope to see (figuratively) you tomorrow Zoochy.

The NCAA rule states that a team "shall not be in continuous control of a ball in the backcourt for 10 seconds". This means that the 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds. This is different than NFHS rules, where it starts on player control inbounds.

NCAA Team Control ???
 

So does NCAA team control start on the touch?

Or does NCAA team control start at disposal to inbounder (who is neither in the frontcourt nor in the backcourt) and then carry over to a player inbounds (seems odd, kind of what bob jenkins was talking about earlier) ?

In other words, what is NCAA definition of team control and/or player control?

Yet, the wording for the NFHS rule is essentially identical.

NFHS: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

The wording you cite is not the reason that the NFHS and NCAA different in their rulings.

Team control starts with the ball being at the team's disposal for a throw-in, so they are considered in control for all purposes, not just to prevent the other team from shooting bonus free throws on a player/team control foul.

So if the throw-in is tipped by the offense in the FC and goes to the BC and the offense recovers, it's a violation?

We know that's not true.

U Can't Touch This (MC Hammer, 1990) ...
 

ilyazhito: So the NCAA player control (that leads to team control) rule must include holding, dribbling, or touching?

Or is there some type of exception (player/team control, as defined by rule, not necessary) for ten seconds?

I know that the NCAA 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds, just questioning the rule basis, especially the phrase "continuous control", in other words, how does the NCAA achieve this "work around?

Just to clarify -- it starts on the touch after a throw-in. It starts on possession after a jump ball, a rebound, a turnover. (there might be other categories -- I'm doing this without my book)

Always Listen To bob ...
 

Thanks.

... Because there is player/team control after disposal on a throwin and not so for a jump ball, a rebound, a turnover, etc.?

Does the NCAA characterize this throwin player/team control to be used only for the purpose of team control fouls (no free throws) during the throwin, and not for anything else (backcourt) as the NFHS does?

Or rather, does the NCAA allow this throwin player/team control to be used for ten second purposes (or any purpose except backcourt) when the inbounds pass goes to a player in the backcourt, making a touch essentially the same as a possession (holding, dribbling) in this situation?

On a jump ball and a rebound, there is no team control. This is because no team control is possible while the ball is dead (before a jump ball), or during a try (which has to.precede a rebound). Before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose. This is why loose ball fouls are a separate category under NCAAM rules.

Once the ball becomes live on a throw-in, the team throwing in the ball has control until the ball becomes dead again, assuming possession is not lost in the interim (via a turnover, try, foul, violation, or jump ball situation [not all situations that trigger the possession arrow are caused by a held ball]). The team control that happens when the ball is at the disposal of a team is the same as team control when the ball is live in bounds. The touch inbounds signifies that the ball is inbounds, action proceeds, and therefore game and shot clocks will start.

Are you talking NCAA or NFHS?

This refers to NCAA rules. NFHS with a shot clock is different, because there team control on a throw-in exists only for the purpose of fouls. There is also no loose ball foul under NFHS rules. However, my points about team control on a jump ball and free throw remain the same.

Where did you get the statement that "before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose"?

There is team control, but there is an exception to the team control foul in regards to shooting free throws if it's a loose ball foul.

Rule 4-15-2.a.
3. Loose-ball foul. A loose-ball foul is a common foul that is committed by a player when any of the conditions in Rule 4-24 occur. A loose-ball foul on an offensive player is also a team-control foul.

Rule 10-1-18 Penalty
c. Bonus free throw for: Each common foul committed by a team, beginning with that team’s seventh foul during the half, provided that the first attempt is successful. This includes team-control fouls which occur during a loose ball such as a fumble, deflection, or release of the ball for a try. This does not include team-control fouls when the ball is being passed between teammates and there is no deflection.


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That "loose ball foul" stuff is NCAAM only. NCAAW mirrors NFHS in this regard.

It is weird that NCAAM chooses to keep the NFHS definition of team control (loose ball fouls by A are team control fouls), yet has teams shoot free throws on those fouls if in the bonus, which is NBA practice. It is just as strange as NFHS declaring that there is team control on throw-ins, but only for the purpose of fouls by A.

Confused In Connecticut ...
 

ilyazhito: Thanks for trying to explain, but I'm still confused.

Are you saying that in NCAA once an inbounder has been handed/bounced the ball, player/team control begins (just like NFHS), and this team control continues with the inbounds pass, continuing to an inbounds touch (no possession, holding, dribbling, needed, unlike the NFHS), only ending with the other team gaining team control, steal, violation, foul, timeout, etc. (like the NFHS), and that this team control covers all other rule aspects (ten seconds, back court, team control fouls, shot clock, etc., unlike the NFHS)?

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds. Team control does not change unless possession changes (there is a steal, a player turns the ball over, or a try is attempted) or the ball becomes dead. NCAA team control, unlike NFHS team control, does not exist only for the purpose of fouls. Because NCAA team control starts with a team being in disposal of the ball for a throw-in, and continues with the inbounds pass, the 10-second count and shot clock start together when the ball is touched inbounds.

Is any of that different from NFHS WHEN the shot clock is used?

from nfhs.org:
OFFICIALS' GENERAL DUTIES

Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). Use a silent, visible 10-second count when there is no shot clock visible.

5. Start the shot clock when:
A player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in; or
A team initially gains control after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal; or
Control of a loose ball is gained after a jump ball; or
Unsuccessful try for goal.

It depends on the rules your state uses. MD still uses the NFHS visible 10-second count for boys, but DC uses the shot clock to administer the 10-second count. Private schools in my area, at least for boys, also use the shot clock to administer the 10-second count.

You still must have player control somewhere on the court before you can have any type of back court violation. So even though there's team control, and a touch in the back court then touch in the front court and then a touch in the back court or any combination of touches that brings the ball from the front court to the back court, there's still no back court violation.

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Are you talking about the violation known as "over and back", or the 10-second violation? You could have a 10-second violation without player control, but not an "over-and-back" violation.

AFAIK, a player with frontcourt status has to possess the ball, and then either take it into the backcourt, or pass the ball.to a player with backcourt status to trigger that violation.

The time related violation is referred to as "10 Second Backcourt" violation in the rule book.

"Backcourt" violation is the over and back you are referring to.

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Not Intended ...
 

ilyazhito: So the NCAA team control throw-in rule is much different from the NFHS team control throw-in rule?

If so, I now "get it".

NFHS 2017-18 Basketball Points of Emphasis
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

Yes, the NCAA version of team control starts with the ball being at the disposal of the team for the throw-in, and ends on a change of possession or dead ball. That said, for a backcourt (not a 10-second) violation, player control is required. This is because the ball must first obtain frontcourt status and then achieve backcourt status.

Usually that happens when a player crosses the division line and either retreats back over the division line, or else passes to someone who has not yet crossed the division line.

For a 10-second violation, team control, but not player control is required. A common example is when there is a pass with the shot clock at 20 seconds, and the ball is still airborne. That is a 10-second violation. A held ball awarded to the offense with 20 seconds is another example of a 10-second violation without player control, because the offense would be entitled to possession in this scenario, but could not legally put the ball into play without committing a violation.

Patience Is A Virtue ...
 

Thank you ilyazhito. I appreciate your patience with me.

I think yoiu meant is NOT much different -- because it isn't.

And, you can 't use a 2017-18 POE to apply to a shot clock situation because NFHS didn't have a shot-clock in 2017-18. Obviously that POE would need to be adjusted to reflect that TC DOES apply to 10-second violations when the shot clock is being used.

Confused ...
 

Now I'm confused again.

NFHS: TC starts on possession inbounds (after a temporary/limited initial disposal throwin TC only for foul purposes).

NCAA: TC starts on initial disposal TC and continues until it ends (foul, violation, steal, etc.).

Agree 100%. By individual states, or by the NFHS?

[QUOTE=BillyMac;1047171]Now I'm confused again.

NFHS: TC starts on possession inbounds (after a temporary/limited initial disposal throwin TC only for foul purposes).

NCAA: TC starts on initial disposal TC and continues until it ends (foul, violation, steal, etc.).

Well, since it's an NFHS rule and an NFHS statement on what TC applies to ....

And, for practical purposes, the definitions and uses of TC are the same in NFHS (when the shot clock is used) and NCAA for TC fouls, BC violations, 10-second violations, 3-second violations, etc.

The difference is NFHS with a shot clock and NFHS without a shot clock.

With/Without ...
 

Agree. It's got to be fixed.

Fix the ten second rule (touch), or fix the shot clock rule (possession).

If the NFHS doesn't fix it, the states will, and then we'll have a hodgepodge of rules.