Kevin Durant Critique
 

What do you have?

A) Illegal Dribble
B) Travel
C) Both A & B
D) Nothing

https://sports.yahoo.com/eighth-grad...160413701.html


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It is a travel on the last spin. I am not nitpicking a dribble behind the back. This is why the POE on spin moves is highlighted this year.

Peace

Carry ...
 

Carry (illegal dribble) due to holding the ball when he moved it from left hand to right hand without a dribble behind his back, and subsequently starting a second illegal dribble.

He transfers the ball from his left hand to his right hand in between dribbles. I don't even need to get to the spin move.

It's not a carry, it's not palming. It's an illegal dribble that's referred to on the playground as a double dribble.

Carrying and palming both refer to illegal plays where the same hand is used to dribble.

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Illegal (Double) Dribble ...
 

Yeah, I can go along with with a one handed description even though the rulebook says something about two hands.

4-15-4-B: The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

Of course, non-officials don't realize that carrying/palming is not an actual rule violation, it's either a travel, or an illegal (double) dribble, even though carrying/palming has it's own signal.

From the Misunderstood List: Palming, or carrying, is when the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or illegally dribbles a second time.

IAABO (never heard it from the NFHS), in one of its Make the Call videos, takes this one step further (a step too far in my opinion) by differentiating between palming and carrying; one, carrying, being a travel; and the other, palming, being an illegal (double) dribble. Up until seeing the video, I had never heard of such a differentiation.

The kid, when going behind his back, almost puts two hands on the ball at the same time (had to double check). Lots of weird stuff here. Thanks crosscountry55.

I noticed immediately him putting the ball from his left hand to his right hand. I don't see how anybody could miss that.

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You Haven't Done Nothin' (1974) ...
 

Little Stevie Wonder could have made this call with his eyes closed.

Could it have been a travel/carry immediately before he switched hands, that ball sure seemed somewhat cupped (holding) in his left hand while his feet were moving?

Maybe it was a two person game, with the trail across the basketline on the other side of the court?

You didn't see it on a video. You had to double check to see if he had two hands on the ball at the same time. How did you not see him switching the ball from one hand to the other?

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Two Hands, Illegal Dribble ...
 

Did he touch the ball with two hands at the same time when the ball was behind his back? Sure, if you say so. You'll get no argument from me. I was unsure because I thought I spotted a few millimeters of separation space during a hand switching self "pass", or maybe it was an actual handoff. Maybe your monitor is better than my small ten year old monitor.

What does it matter if he touched it with both hands at the same time or passed it from one hand to the other.

He had already dribbled and he OBVIOUSLY touched the ball with both hands prior to dribbling again. Why is touching it at the same time or separately relevant? Why do you bring stuff into the conversation that means nothing at all?

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Both On Same Page, Except The Label ...
 

It doesn't.

Here's my take:

He held (cupped) the ball in this left hand, "self passed" behind his back, and then held (cupped) the ball in his right hand, after which he dribbled "again".

Other than calling it a carry, where am I wrong?

"The kid, when going behind his back, almost puts two hands on the ball at the same time (had to double check)."

What are you double checking and why? Your statement would lead a new, unknowing official to think it makes a difference whether it was touched by both hands at the same time or separately?

This is you causing unnecessary confusion.


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Hate to say it Raymond, but 4-15-4c specifies simultaneity is required for the dribble to be considered ended:

ART. 4 ... The dribble ends when:

a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.

c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to lose control.

e. The ball becomes dead.

Probably where this is an illegal dribble actually comes from 4-15-2:

ART. 2 ... During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

I think there were a few millimeters of separation. It may have been the shortest “bat” in basketball history.

Either way, an illegal dribble. Just a matter of which section of the article applies.


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The dribble is illegal because it was touched by both hands in between dribbles. You cannot touch the ball with both hands either simultaneously or separately in between dribbles. You can't even touch it twice with the same hand. What I am saying is part is part of your post. You pointed it out. So how am I wrong?

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So based on what I've read in this thread, there are officials who say it is legal for a player to tap the ball from one hand to the other in between dribbles?

Dribble, ball bounces up, A1 taps the ball with his right hand to his left hand, then dribbles (bats the ball to the floor) with his left hand. That is legal and I've been calling it wrong all these years?

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No, you're not wrong. Everyone is just referencing the wrong rule. There is a rule about he dribble ending when touched simultaneously with both hands but that isn't the relevant part.

Once the player bats (or pushes) the ball away form a hand on a dribble, they can't touch it again with a hand until it has hit the floor. This is the relevant article:

Rule 4, Section 15, ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

If what is being discussed were legal, a player could run down the court batting the ball between their hands without ever letting the ball hit the floor. At one time, that was actually legal, but it was long before I was born.

Agree, Raymond is not wrong. I just think a plain reading of 4-15-2 that says “bats into the air” conjures an image of a player popping a ball ten feet into the air over a defender’s head and then going around him/her and touching it again before it comes down, all in an attempt to evade the defender. What it doesn’t conjure up is the “slight of hand” bat that occurred in the OP video. That’s still a “bat into the air” touched again by the hand(s) before the ball contacts the floor, and therefore an illegal dribble.

I guess some of us are implying that maybe 4-15-2 could be written a little better to help the reader envision the scenario.


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Weird Wild Stuff (Johnny Carson) ...
 

Context is important. My subsequent statement was:

Had the player put two hands on the ball at the same time, which I don't believe that he did (by millimeters), that would have been an additional article violation worthy of Durant's scorn, and might have been the first violation in this play depending on how one viewed the cupping with the left hand with accompanying foot movement.

4-15-4-C: The dribble ends when: The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.

Like Johnny Carson said, "Weird wild stuff".

Book, Chapter, And Verse ...
 

Agree. But it was illegal for, at least, one other reason, with one reason not (barely) being for simultaneously touching the ball with both hands.

Some could have viewed the cupping (holding) while moving his feet as a travel (carry), however this was quite subtle and there was a more obvious violation.

Would it be easier to state which rule, section, and article this young ball handler didn't violate?

Again, thanks crosscountry55 for this very educational and interesting video.

Definitely agree the rule should be written better--"dribble ends if the ball is touched by both hands, either simultaneously or separately; dribble ends if the ball is touched twice by the same hand". If someone was implying that before you just explicitly stated it, then they were way too subtle. ;)

I just saw Billy implying their is difference in ruling based upon the ball being touched by both hands simultaneously and both hands separately. I wonder how many illegal dribbles he has allowed based on that differentiation.

Missed It By That Much ...
 

Different articles. Same ruling. Different rationales. Both illegal. One almost, but didn't, occur in this video.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.j...=0&w=300&h=300

I asked you why it mattered if it were one or the other that occurred. Don't remember your answer being "it doesn't matter, both result in an illegal dribble".

Again, an example of how your discussions would confuse new officials.

Misunderstood ...
 

I was double checking because if he did execute a simultaneous two-handed switch (which he didn't) that would be additional rationale for a violation here.

Because I was flummoxed (and concentrating on) by whether, or not, the simultaneous two-handed switch had actually occurred, never actually believing it.

Either your posts, or my posts (or both) were misunderstood.

This post really stymied me.

I thought that your post implied (I was wrong) that you believed that there was a hand to hand two-handed simultaneous switch. To which I responded.

... never actually believing it.

... and it all went downhill after that.

Were it not for your post, this would have been the last you heard from me about two simultaneous hands.

... a simple statement that there was lots of weird stuff in the video.

The written word, especially when penned by an amateur like me, can sometimes be misunderstood.

Better to orally discuss something over a couple of adult beverages.

1) I have an Illegal Dribble when he went behind his back.

2) I have Kevin Durant as a SCHMUCK for his comments.

MTD, Sr.

Leave Well Enough Alone ...
 

I should probably let sleeping dogs lie, but anybody want to comment on this?

I'm not saying that it was a definite violation, but it was a subtle “slight of hand” move that got my antennae up the first time I spotted it.

Of course, in a real game in real time, if one is not sure, don’t call it, but here we have the video to watch over and over.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=300&h=300

Asked And Answered ...
 

Found it.