Circumventing Rules ...
 

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Great points (as was your earlier post) and great examples. My list existed for almost fifteen years without this situation. It was a very recent addition after a video interpretation by IAABO (not the NFHS). While Camron Rust, Raymond, and others may be right, it's still not a 100% fact in my mind, so I'm leaving it off the list, which doesn't mean the IAABO interpretation (and Camron Rust and Raymond) is wrong, it just means that it's not on my list, as many rules and interpretations are not on my list (though it's quite lengthy, probably too lengthy).

If this situation appears on a written exam, I take a chance on an incorrect answer of calling picking up this fumbled try a legal play. If this situation happens in a real game in real time, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "Fumble" (not "He dropped it"), I'll pass on a whistle, and if anybody complains, I'll confidently explain "It was a fumble", and unless it was the final play of a tied game, my call will probably be forgotten.

Camron Rust: In your great, well written, rational post, why did you call it a de facto dribble? Why not just "dribble"? De facto means being in effect though not formally recognized. So, is it a formally recognized dribble, or is it not a formally recognized dribble? By choosing the phrase "de facto" are you consciously, or unconsciously admitting that this situation may be a "gap" or "blind spot" in the rules, as posted by Raymond earlier?

I called it a de facto dribble because it isn't technically a dribble but is treated as if it were one....the same as throwing the ball isn't a try but is treated as if it were a try in most respects. Another one...a shooter who has released the ball and crashes into a legal defender is called for a player control foul even though they don't actually have player control at that point. In fact, this last one might be the best comparison...a player that jumps in an attempt to shoot is treated as if they have player control in most respects until they land....thus fumbling doesn't get them out of the traveling rule any more than releasing the ball on a shot gets them out of player control foul.

Brilliant ...
 

Brilliant, but still not on my list.

Thanks for your time and effort. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this. Much appreciated. It wasn't in vain. You haven't completely changed my mind, but have left me scratching my head.

I wish the NFHS had a caseplay with a fumble.

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. RULING: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

Very Interesting ...
 

Interesting that the player is said to touch the ball after it bounces. Many Forum members (I have agreed for a written exam) have discussed that one doesn't have to wait for the touch, but if one deems it the start of a dribble, then it's the start of a dribble, and if one deems it the start of a bounce pass, then it's the start of a bounce pass, as a literal interpretation of the rules.

Wonder why the NFHS specifically stated "touches it first after it bounces"?

Is it possible that the NFHS wants us to wait for a touch to insure that this is not the start of a legal bounce pass?

Blocked Shot ...
 

Couldn't (b) be considered a blocked shot and play on?

No.

IRL, it's judgment, of course, whether A is prevented from releasing the ball and then fumbles it, or the shot is blocked out of A1's hands. In the play, it's a given

Blocked Shot ...
 

Thanks bob jenkins.

So this (below) part of my list isn't true.

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball ... the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot.

It's been on my list for almost fifteen years, published annually on the Forum, in an IAABO Sportorials magazine available to 15,000 IAABO members, duplicated on many basketball officiating websites, and nobody ever complained about it.

I hate this entire attempted shot paragraph. But it's necessary. I just have to write it better.

The shooter can retrieve one’s own airball if the official considers it to be a shot attempt, or if the ball hits the backboard. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, the airborne shooter maintains control of the ball, chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. If, in another similar situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot. It is not a violation for that player to start a dribble at that point. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

I think your statements are generally true. See edits

Strike Through ...
 

Thanks, I'll check it out tomorrow.

How does one achieve a strike through on the Forum?

Final Draft ...
 

How's this? Can we now put this to bed? Now separated into two paragraphs. Note that I avoided saying anything that may be considered controversial about fumbles.

The shooter can retrieve one’s own airball if the official considers it to be a shot attempt, or if the ball hits the backboard. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

If a defender puts a hand(s) on a ball controlled by airborne shooter (or passer), such that the airborne player is unable to release the ball, that player has not traveled, it is a held ball. If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne player chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. If, in another similar situation, the airborne player loses control of the ball because of the touch, then this is simply a blocked shot. It is not a violation for that player to start a dribble at that point. When an airborne player tries for goal (or passes), sees that the try (or pass) will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Jinx ...
 

Bad karma. Hadn't seen this play in many, many years, but had it today in my game.

Kid barely five feet tall shooting against a kid six feet plus. You should have seen the terrified look on the shooter's face.

Thank God it didn't involve a fumble.

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Thankfully it didn't happen to me.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Karma ...
 

Shut up. You were the one worried about it in a real game. It was supposed to happen to you, not to me.

[emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Just called a travel in the Wyoming-Stanford game late in the first half at the Diamond Classic. Called once the player put the ball down to the floor.

Peace