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-   -   The Most Misunderstood NFHS Basketball Rules ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105577-most-misunderstood-nfhs-basketball-rules.html)

JRutledge Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 1045849)
So it doesn't matter if the ball is dropped/fumbled and the ball hits the floor BEFORE the shooter touches the ball again? It would still be a traveling violation?

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If you deem the action is the start of a dribble, touching the ball does not matter if the pivot foot has been lifted. And if you jump in the air with both feet, you cannot be doing that without the pivot foot being lifted now can you? :D

Peace

BillyMac Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:01am
Drops The Ball ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 1045849)
So it doesn't matter if the ball is dropped/fumbled and the ball hits the floor BEFORE the shooter touches the ball again? It would still be a traveling violation?
When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

BryanV21 Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1045850)
If you deem the action is the start of a dribble, touching the ball does not matter if the pivot foot has been lifted. And if you jump in the air with both feet, you cannot be doing that without the pivot foot being lifted now can you? :D



Peace
And if the fumble/drop is NOT deemed as the start of a dribble, but I an actual fumble?

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BryanV21 Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045851)
When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.
So if it's not a purposeful drop/fumble then no violation has occurred? I was assuming it was unintentional.

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JRutledge Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 1045852)
And if the fumble/drop is NOT deemed as the start of a dribble, but I an actual fumble?
A fumble by definition is an accidental loss of the ball. You cannot "fumble" the ball on purpose. And you can always recover a fumble.

Peace

BryanV21 Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1045854)
A fumble by definition is an accidental loss of the ball. You cannot "fumble" the ball on purpose. And you can always recover a fumble.



Peace
If you can always recover a fumble, then why is the airborne shooter play being discussed in question?

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JRutledge Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 1045855)
If you can always recover a fumble, then why is the airborne shooter play being discussed in question?
I cannot explain why some here like to nitpick everything, but a fumble is clearly by definition an accidental loss of the ball and a dribble is actually throwing, batting or pushing the ball to the floor. So one is unintentional and the other is very intentional. And since the rule says that you cannot start a dribble while moving your pivot foot, I think some are trying to suggest the only way you can call that is if you touch the ball again when that is not how the rule reads.

Peace

BryanV21 Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1045856)
I cannot explain why some here like to nitpick everything, but a fumble is clearly by definition an accidental loss of the ball and a dribble is actually throwing, batting or pushing the ball to the floor. So one is unintentional and the other is very intentional. And since the rule says that you cannot start a dribble while moving your pivot foot, I think some are trying to suggest the only way you can call that is if you touch the ball again when that is not how the rule reads.



Peace
By definition the play seems legal, but I'm so confused now because it sounds like the book says that play is illegal.

I just want to know what to call, because Murphy's Law says that will happen in my game Friday night.

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BillyMac Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:18pm
In My Words ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 1045857)
By definition the play seems legal, but I'm so confused now because it sounds like the book says that play is illegal.
Please note that my misunderstood rules list is my list, in my words, but it is based on NFHS rules and interruptions.

Here's my most updated version the paragraph in question.

The shooter can retrieve one’s own airball if the official considers it to be a shot attempt, or if the ball hits the backboard. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, the airborne shooter maintains control of the ball, chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. If, in another similar situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot. It is not a violation for that player to start a dribble at that point. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Note that I've once again deleted the "fumble scenario". If I can't explain something to a coach, it's not going to be on my list.

Note: In a real game, I'm allowing the fumble to be picked up, but not dribbled agian.

BillyMac Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:21pm
Fumble ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1045854)
A fumble by definition is an accidental loss of the ball. You cannot "fumble" the ball on purpose. And you can always recover a fumble.
Well stated. Agree. One can always fumble, dribble, and fumble, but can't dribble, fumble, and dribble (if ball picked up from fumble with both hands).

BryanV21 Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045858)
Please note that my misunderstood rules list in my list, in my words, but it is based n NFHS rules and interruptions.



Here's my most updated version the paragraph in question. If I can't explain something to a coach, it's not on my list.



The shooter can retrieve one’s own airball if the official considers it to be a shot attempt, or if the ball hits the backboard. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, the airborne shooter maintains control of the ball, chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. If, in another similar situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot. It is not a violation for that player to start a dribble at that point. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.



I'm missing where this applies to a shooter fumbling a shot attempt, and whether that is traveling or not.

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BillyMac Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:32pm
Not A Mind Reader ..
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1045856)
... some are trying to suggest the only way you can call that is if you touch the ball again when that is not how the rule reads.
I'm the "some", and JRutledge is correct, that's how the rule reads.

But since I can't read minds, in a real game, I'm waiting until the airborne player (who purposely drops the ball) touches the ball after it hits the floor. This is the only way I can know with 100% certainty that it wasn't an intended (legal) bounce pass, no such thing as a "self pass".

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

BillyMac Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:34pm
Fumble Scenario ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 1045860)
I'm missing where this applies to a shooter fumbling a shot attempt, and whether that is traveling or not.
I've once again deleted the "fumble scenario". If I can't explain something to a coach, it's not going to be on my list.

In a real game, I'm allowing the fumble to be picked up, but not dribbled again.

BillyMac Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:36pm
Deem ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1045850)
If you deem the action is the start of a dribble, touching the ball does not matter if the pivot foot has been lifted.
Agree.

BillyMac Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:48pm
No Closure ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045862)
I've once again deleted the "fumble scenario".
... Because we can't get 100% agreement on this situation. See Camron Rust's post #10.

Here's what I deleted:

When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, unintentionally drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s a traveling violation because the airborne shooter didn't shoot or pass before landing and picking up the ball.

This may be true, or it may not be true, so it's no longer on the list.


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