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-   -   Casebook 7.5.7 sit A. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105564-casebook-7-5-7-sit.html)

BillyMac Wed Nov 24, 2021 06:19pm
Smile, You're On Candid Camera ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045615)
I already knew it ...
I don't doubt that for a single second, but why keep it a secret?

Wait? Is this Candid Camera? C'mon Raymond. Are we on Candid Camera? Where's the camera? Is it the camera in our laptops?

Raymond Wed Nov 24, 2021 06:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045616)
I don't doubt that for a single second, but why keep it a secret?



Wait? Is this Candid Camera? C'mon Raymond. Where's the camera?
Because I'm doing other things during the day and not going to go find the exact citation in the rule book. It's pretty common knowledge (or should be) amongst veteran officials that after the ball is dead fouls can still be committed by or against an airborne shooter.

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BillyMac Wed Nov 24, 2021 06:37pm
Busy Hands Make Happy Hands ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045617)
Because I'm doing other things during the day ...
You were noticeably absent from this thread (only one early post). This must be the busy time of the year for you at work. Hopefully you have tomorrow off from work. Happy Thanksgiving.

BillyMac Wed Nov 24, 2021 06:42pm
Look At The Shiny Object ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045617)
It's pretty common knowledge among veteran officials that after the ball is dead fouls can still be committed by or against an airborne shooter.
Absolutely, but normally I think of the ball simply going in (or not) along with a foul by, or against, the airborne shooter.

The goaltending violation was the shiny object that distracted me.

Nice thread Blindolbat. Thanks.

bob jenkins Wed Nov 24, 2021 07:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045614)
Why did it take so long for us to come up with this citation?
Us? See post #18

BillyMac Wed Nov 24, 2021 08:04pm
Not Picking "Note" ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1045621)
See post #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1045603)
Still a foul on or by an airborne shooter while the ball is dead is still a personal foul (4-19-1) and a PC foul (4-19-6).
Agree. Would have liked to have seen it in the form of a question ... Wait? I'm being told ... Not Jeopardy? Never mind ... the quoted rule language, or at least the addition of the word "Note" to 4-19-1.

Now, back to that shiny object.

BigCat Thu Nov 25, 2021 05:20pm
See also 4.19.6A

BillyMac Thu Nov 25, 2021 05:47pm
Another Citation ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 1045623)
See also 4.19.6A
4.19.6 SITUATION A: B1 obtains a legal position in A1’s path before A1 becomes airborne. A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. Before returning to the floor, airborne shooter A1 charges into B1. (a) Before the foul by A1, B2 commits basket interference; or (b) after the foul on A1, B2 slaps the ball on its downward flight.

RULING: In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized. The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a player-control foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score. In (b), the ball becomes dead and the try ends immediately when the player-control foul on A1 occurs. The action of B2 is ignored as goaltending cannot occur after the try has ended. The ball is awarded to Team B for a throw-in from a designated spot out of bounds closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-1, 6-7-4, 6-7-9 EXCEPTION, 7-5-4a, 9-11)

BillyMac Fri Nov 26, 2021 01:21pm
Doesn't Have To Be A Try ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045624)
4.19.6 SITUATION A: B1 obtains a legal position in A1’s path before A1 becomes airborne. A1 jumps and releases the ball on a try for goal. Before returning to the floor, airborne shooter A1 charges into B1. (a) Before the foul by A1, B2 commits basket interference; or (b) after the foul on A1, B2 slaps the ball on its downward flight. RULING: In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized. The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a player-control foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score. In (b), the ball becomes dead and the try ends immediately when the player-control foul on A1 occurs. The action of B2 is ignored as goaltending cannot occur after the try has ended. The ball is awarded to Team B for a throw-in from a designated spot out of bounds closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-1, 6-7-4, 6-7-9 EXCEPTION, 7-5-4a, 9-11)
It's interesting that the NFHS made (b) a goaltending situation (which must involve a try).

What if (b) had been a basket interference (doesn't have to be a try) situation?

Same ruling with a different rationale?

Raymond Fri Nov 26, 2021 02:25pm
How do you have an airborne shooter if there's no try?

Are you just trying to extend this thread because it's come to a conclusion?

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bob jenkins Fri Nov 26, 2021 02:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045626)
How do you have an airborne shooter if there's no try?

Are you just trying to extend this thread because it's come to a conclusion?

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Plus, it doesn't matter what B does (absent something arising to a T) since the ball is dead on the foul (it will be a TC foul, not a PC foul) by A.

NFHS made the specific case be goaltending, but it's not restrictive.

BillyMac Fri Nov 26, 2021 02:40pm
Apples And Oranges. ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045626)
How do you have an airborne shooter if there's no try?
I was basing my question on "ignored as goaltending cannot occur after the try has ended".

In situation (b), let's say that there was basket interference instead of goaltending, making the rationale of "the try ended" a moot point, the need for it to be a try to call goaltending is gone, with basket interference it can be a try, or not be a try.

I would think that the ruling would be the same, no basket, but for a different reason, the foul makes the ball dead, and one can't have basket interference with a dead ball up on the ring, or in the cylinder.

I just thought it odd that the NFHS didn't keep the basket interference situation for both (a) before the foul, and (b) after the foul, allowing us to compare apples to apples instead of forcing us to compare apples to oranges.

BillyMac Fri Nov 26, 2021 02:45pm
Player Control Foul ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1045627)
... it will be a TC foul, not a PC foul ...
Why not a player control foul?

RULING: In (a), both the violation and the foul are penalized. The basket interference by B2 causes the ball to become dead immediately. The violation is penalized by awarding the two points. The player-control foul on A1 is also charged. Team B is awarded the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. A defensive-goaltending or basket-interference violation committed prior to a player-control foul does not contradict the general statement that when a player-control foul occurs that player cannot score. In the case of a defensive violation, it is the violation which results in awarding the score. In (b), the ball becomes dead and the try ends immediately when the player-control foul on A1 occurs. The action of B2 is ignored as goaltending cannot occur after the try has ended. The ball is awarded to Team B for a throw-in from a designated spot out of bounds closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-1, 6-7-4, 6-7-9 EXCEPTION, 7-5-4a, 9-11)

Raymond Fri Nov 26, 2021 02:47pm
I have no idea what you're trying to say. Like I said, this thread is over because what should have been common knowledge to veteran officials has been documented with the proper citations. You are searching for things that I can't even decipher.

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BillyMac Fri Nov 26, 2021 02:50pm
Different Rationale ...
 
I'm now referring to the new caseplay, 4.19.6.A, brought to our attention by BigCat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045630)
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
Just change the goaltending in situation (b) to basket interference.

I say same ruling, no basket, with a different rationale, one can't have basket interference with a dead ball up on the ring, or in the cylinder.

The original situation (b) with goaltending had a rationale that one couldn't have goaltending because it was no longer a try (a necessary component of goaltending).


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