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-   -   Fun With Out Of Bounds … (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105494-fun-out-bounds.html)

JRutledge Sat Sep 04, 2021 08:24pm
This is the Lead's line. The Trail should only signal if the Lead is asking for help. Similar to a ball coming from the Trail being thrown to the endline.

They seem to get this right but it could have been a disaster if both did not agree. That is why the Trail waits for an indication of help.

Peace

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:04am
New IAABO Line Responsibility Mechanic ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1044506)
This call is the L's call in NFHS 2 person mechanics. NFHS hasn't made any change Lead's line ... lead's call ... all the way down the line ... Much cleaner to have a line be entirely owned by one official.
Agree. The "new" IAABO line responsibility mechanic was difficult to get used to, often ends up with double whistles, and occasionally ends up with a greatly delayed whistle (as the ball sits in the coach's lap).

But as much as I hated the change (with so much intense hatred by many veterans that they refused to use the new IAABO line responsibility mechanic, and said so in their pregame), I did understand the IAABO rationale of pairing this sideline responsibility with one's primary coverage area.

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:17am
Shouldn't Be Looking There, No Ball Watching ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1044510)
Is this IAABO coverage for all line coverage ... how does the T know when a player has stepped on the opposite sideline? In my experience, there is NO way the T can see that with any certainty. That line must absolutely be covered by the L to have any chance of getting the call right.
Agree. Yes, it's for all line coverage except press coverage (and I assume fast break transitions). The IAABO rationale is that the Lead, under many situations, shouldn't even be looking there (unless he's ball watching). What makes matters worse is that, half the time, the coaches often have the best look, better than either official.

While I've always disliked this "new" IAABO line responsibility mechanic, I do find myself doing less sideline above the free throw line extended ball watching as the Lead.

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:23am
NFHS Line Responsibility Mechanic ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1044513)
Sorry, BillyMac.
Nice citation from the NFHS. I didn't realize that IAABO and the NFHS were so different. Makes for some nice discussion here on the Forum.

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:36am
Frontcourt Endline Line Responsibilities ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044500)
Two person difficult out of bounds calls involve the front court endline opposite where the Lead is. He's responsible for out of bounds calls all the way along the entire endline, yet his primary coverage ends before the endline intersects the far sideline, that's the primary coverage area (but not the out of bounds responsibility) of the Trail. The Trail has to call a travel, or foul, an inch away from the endline there, but shouldn't call an out of bounds there if a player steps on the boundary line. This is where we often see the Lead sounding his whistle to stop the clock for out of bounds and asking for help (especially on a ball that flies out of bounds along the endline, a ball that originated from the Trail's primary coverage area).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1044510)
... know when a player has stepped on the ... line?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1044511)
Kinda weird, isn't it? Being able to call violations that close to the endline except out-of-bounds. In the NFHS manual at 4.4.1.A.2 it says that "typically an official should rule on violations in his/her PCA, but any violation observed should be ruled"
It appears that the NFHS and IAABO both have the same conflict with primary coverage areas and line responsibilities along the frontcourt endline (side opposite the Lead).

Technically, according to both the NFHS and IAABO, out of bounds is a violation (like any other violation) and should be called when it occurs in one's primary coverage area.

And yet, the frontcourt endline responsibility is solely the Lead's responsibility in both NFHS and IAABO mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044514)
This is the Lead's line. The Trail should only signal if the Lead is asking for help ... a ball coming from the Trail being thrown to the endline.
Just proves that three heads are better than two.

JRutledge Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:43am
This is from the NASO Mechanics Illustrated Book for 2021-2022.


https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...=278&crop=fill

Quote:
Covering boundary lines is among the most difficult tasks using a crew of two officials. By correctly placing so much emphasis on off-ball coverage for the lead, some boundary-line coverage sometimes gets sacrificed.

The NFHS manual states that in the frontcourt the lead is responsible for the sideline nearest the lead and the endline. The trail is responsible for the division line and the sideline nearest the trail. While in theory that sounds easy, the actual practice is very difficult and sacrifices off-ball coverage in the lane area.

Here’s an example. A trouble spot for two-person crews is a player who has the ball near the sideline above the free-throw line extended and opposite the trail. The trail correctly moves toward the center of the court to officiate the action on the player with the ball, such as fouls, traveling violations, etc.

The problem: The manual states that sideline is the lead’s responsibility. Well, if the lead has to look beyond the free-throw line extended to watch for a potential sideline violation and the trail has to watch for fouls, etc., who is watching the other players? No one. There are too many off-ball problems that can occur if no one is supervising those players.

Referee recommends that the trail also have opposite sideline responsibility above the free-throw line extended. Sometimes, the trail must move well beyond the center of the court to see an out-of-bounds violation. Stay deep (toward the division line) on the play to get a good angle.

Even with great hustle toward the far sideline, it is a tough look for the trail. The problem compounds if there’s a swing pass back toward the other sideline. The trail must hustle back toward that sideline to get a good look there. Staying deep gives the trail a chance.
If you teach the lead properly and even the trail properly, the lead will widen out their coverage to cover the sideline. Staying close to the lane is not what the lead should do on plays close to the sideline. Is this ideal coverage, but how in the hell does the Trail see a player stepping on the line or a close tip near the sideline (similar to the play featured). I do not like this trend if this is what Referee is recommending.

Peace

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:47am
Rookies, Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1044511)
I can't recall a time where a Trail ruled out of bounds along the endline, other than perhaps, a first-year official.
Agree. Working with a rookie (I'm what'cha call a working with a rookie expert, being available for mid-afternoon middle school assignments), as the Lead, I would later discuss this situation with him and "straighten" him out.

However, now, after this thread, I might rethink my constructive criticism, possibly toning down my criticism.

Also, as a member of my local board's mechanics training committee, I'm wondering if we should rethink our training methods.

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:54am
NASO Mechanics Illustrated ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044524)
This is from the NASO Mechanics Illustrated Book for 2021-2022: Covering boundary lines is among the most difficult tasks using a crew of two officials. By correctly placing so much emphasis on off-ball coverage for the lead, some boundary-line coverage sometimes gets sacrificed. The NFHS manual states that in the frontcourt the lead is responsible for the sideline nearest the lead and the endline. The trail is responsible for the division line and the sideline nearest the trail. While in theory that sounds easy, the actual practice is very difficult and sacrifices off-ball coverage in the lane area. Here’s an example. A trouble spot for two-person crews is a player who has the ball near the sideline above the free-throw line extended and opposite the trail. The trail correctly moves toward the center of the court to officiate the action on the player with the ball, such as fouls, traveling violations, etc. The problem: The manual states that sideline is the lead’s responsibility. Well, if the lead has to look beyond the free-throw line extended to watch for a potential sideline violation and the trail has to watch for fouls, etc., who is watching the other players? No one. There are too many off-ball problems that can occur if no one is supervising those players. Referee recommends that the trail also have opposite sideline responsibility above the free-throw line extended. Sometimes, the trail must move well beyond the center of the court to see an out-of-bounds violation. Stay deep (toward the division line) on the play to get a good angle. Even with great hustle toward the far sideline, it is a tough look for the trail. The problem compounds if there’s a swing pass back toward the other sideline. The trail must hustle back toward that sideline to get a good look there. Staying deep gives the trail a chance.
Great post JRutledge. Thanks. Puts all of the concerns expressed in this thread in a nutshell.

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:56am
Three Heads Are Better Than One ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044524)
... how in the hell does the Trail see a player stepping on the line or a close tip near the sideline (similar to the play featured).
Snarky answer: Three person games.

Shooting from the hip, the best I can come up with for two person games is for both sideline responsibilities, and frontcourt endline responsibilities, to be covered as part of one's primary coverage area, and let the chips fall where they may. It may cut down on some ball watching, and out of bounds is a violation (like any other violation) that should be called when it occurs in one's primary coverage area. Tough calls can be solved by asking for help, offering help, or using the alternating possession arrow.

Or turn over the NFHS/IAABO conflict to the United Nations Security Council.

JRutledge Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:17am
I was always taught to have the "L" coverage. The Trail has the division line and the sideline they are on. And the Lead has the endline and the sideline they are on. Two-person coverage is flawed, so if you have it you are going to have to do things you would not need to do with a 3rd official out there. But not sure how the Trail can clearly know that the ball was knocked out on the offensive player. The Lead's positioning is also poor as he is sticking to the lane it appears. This play might not have been as bad, but if there is a play near the line and someone is stepping on the line, the Trail has no chance. The Lead has to make those kinds of calls.

Peace

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:24pm
Two-Person Coverage Is Flawed ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044528)
... Two-person coverage is flawed, so if you have it you are going to have to do things you would not need to do with a 3rd official out there. But not sure how the Trail can clearly know that the ball was knocked out on the offensive player ... if there is a play near the line and someone is stepping on the line, the Trail has no chance. The Lead has to make those kinds of calls.
Agree, as does the NFHS.

The only problem is when the Lead is paying close attention to some real basketball action in his primary coverage area in the lane, maybe two post players trying to dominate each other as they fight for position, and/or screens being set at the elbows, or at the blocks. The Lead can't be ball watching looking for a ball handler to step on the sideline out near the division line.

While good officials should be always be aware of where all the players are, and where their partner is, we all know the problems that can occur with ball watching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044520)
While I've always disliked this "new" IAABO line responsibility mechanic, I do find myself doing less sideline above the free throw line extended ball watching as the Lead.
We IAABO guys made the old NFHS line responsibility (Lead has entire sideline) coverage work, as best as we could with two officials, back before IAABO switched (to avoid ball watching by the Lead) to a combined sideline primary coverage area and line responsibility (above/below the FT line extended). Knowing that the NFHS two person coverage (that we previously used) was flawed, IAABO just wanted to try something different, something that is also flawed. IAABO just traded one problem for a different problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044528)
Two-person coverage is flawed ...

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 01:50pm
Old Man (Neil Young, 1972) ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044529)
... IAABO just wanted to try something different, something that is also flawed. IAABO just traded one problem for a different problem.
As one of the few who has spent decades using both systems, I can confidently say that one system is not much better, or not much worse, than the other system. They're just different, and each has its own different problems.

And remember, I officiate in Connecticut, so not only am I familiar with both systems, but I'm also waht'cha call a two person game expert.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...67fea40c_m.jpg

Raymond Sun Sep 05, 2021 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044527)
Snarky answer: Three person games.

Shooting from the hip, the best I can come up with for two person games is for both sideline responsibilities, and frontcourt endline responsibilities, to be covered as part of one's primary coverage area, and let the chips fall where they may. It may cut down on some ball watching, and out of bounds is a violation (like any other violation) that should be called when it occurs in one's primary coverage area. Tough calls can be solved by asking for help, offering help, or using the alternating possession arrow.

Or turn over the NFHS/IAABO conflict to the United Nations Security Council.
The Lead can watch his sideline to blow his whistle without ball watching. Need to be able to do more than one thing at a time.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun Sep 05, 2021 02:03pm
Walk And Chew Gum ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1044531)
The Lead can watch his sideline to blow his whistle without ball watching. Need to be able to do more than one thing at a time.
Why we get paid the big bucks.

Breaking News: Connecticut Game Fees for 2021-22 Season: Scrimmage Fee: $150 (3 officials $50 each, 2 officials $75 each); Varsity Fee: $101.69; Sub Varsity Fee: $65.99 (Junior Varsity, Freshmen, Middle Schools).

I used the NFHS system for decades and it can work, and sometimes work quite well, otherwise the NFHS wouldn't have stuck with it for such a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044529)
... good officials should be always be aware of where all the players are, and where their partner is ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044520)
While I've always disliked this "new" IAABO line responsibility mechanic, I do find myself doing less sideline above the free throw line extended ball watching as the Lead.
I wouldn't be upset if for some reason, IAABO would switch course and go back to the NFHS system, warts and all.

Neither two person boundary line system is any where near perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044528)
Two-person coverage is flawed ...

Raymond Sun Sep 05, 2021 02:06pm
Watching your sideline does not mean ball watching. It means being aware when the ball goes out on your sideline.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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