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-   -   Block/Charge ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105454-block-charge.html)

BillyMac Mon Jul 12, 2021 09:07am
Block/Charge ...
 
Comments?

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Raymond Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:34am
I'm going with a block just based on the contact from the left shoulder to the right leg.

In the NBA, it has to be a 100%, no doubt about it, run over for this particular play to be called an offensive foul. If there's any debate or doubt, then they're going block.

I just think it's a philosophy in the NBA and D1 basketball that on high flying, athletic plays like this the defense needs to clearly be legal.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

bob jenkins Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:59am
Green might still be moving left / straightening up when White leaves the ground. And, NBA might have the "LGP at the time of upward motion" rule that NCAA tried for a year or so (I don't know whether they do; just speculating).

JRutledge Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:54am
I got a charge or a no call. For one his left foot is in place before the player moves off the floor. But again the NBA might have a different line of demarcation here, but at the NCAA level and NF level, I have a charge.

Peace

Raymond Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:05pm
Defender sticks his leg into the path, way outside of his own natural cylinder, and is still getting his torso to that spot when contact occurs.

JRutledge Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043832)
Defender sticks his leg into the path, way outside of his own natural cylinder, and is still getting his torso to the spot when contact occurs.
I do not see anyone sticking out their leg. I honestly barely see contact. So that is why I said I might go no call if I see it that clearly. But on any 50/50 play, the defender is getting the benefit from me. If you don't they will try that mess all game and we will have to keep ruling on these plays.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:33pm
Extending ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043832)
Defender sticks his leg into the path, way outside of his own natural cylinder ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043833)
I do not see anyone sticking out their leg ...
Here's the NFHS language:

A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.

The difference between a "normal" stance and an illegal leg extension is subjective and can be fractions of an inch.

Raymond Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043833)
I do not see anyone sticking out their leg. I honestly barely see contact. So that is why I said I might go no call if I see it that clearly. But on any 50/50 play, the defender is getting the benefit from me. If you don't they will try that mess all game and we will have to keep ruling on these plays.

Peace
50/50 on the floor, I'll go PC. 50/50 on high-flying plays like this, I'm going block.

JRutledge Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:42pm
Well unless I have some other standard, this is a charge to me and would be live and certainly in a close play like this. I do not expect defenders to be "perfect."

Peace

BillyMac Mon Jul 12, 2021 04:40pm
Player Control Foul ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043836)
Well unless I have some other standard, this is a charge to me ...
Same in my high school game, player control foul.

And it should be a fairly simple call for me because I saw it coming from a mile away. No surprises.

But I can also see why some may rule otherwise.

justacoach Tue Jul 13, 2021 01:20pm
I'll check my homies with NBA backgrounds...
 
and post their takes on this play.

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 01:41pm
Bunch Of Grown Men Dressed Like Fifth Graders ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 1043863)
I'll check my homies with NBA backgrounds and post their takes on this play.
While you're at it, please ask your kids about NBA "undershirts".

I'm not a big NBA fan, but I have watched parts of a few games during the playoffs.

It's very obvious to me that the NBA doesn't have the same fashion rules as the NFHS.

Nor do I expect them to be the same.

When I do an NBA rule search on the internet, I find that while true undershirts are illegal (remember Patrick Ewing complaining his rookie NBA year), compression shirts for medical reasons are legal.

If this is true, why doesn't the NBA restrict the color of the under-compression shirts?

For a world class organization, it's a horrible look.

I turn on the game and see bunch of grown men dressed like fifth grade boys in a small town basketball recreation league practice session.

NBA teams certainly have the money to purchase "jersey matching" under-compression shirts for their players.

So, please ask your boys, what's the story?

Is the NBA savings money by not purchasing "jersey matching" under-compression shirts in order pay your kids the big bucks?

Raymond Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043864)
While you're at it, please ask your kids about NBA "undershirts".

I'm not a big NBA fan, but I have watched parts of a few games during the playoffs.

It's very obvious to me that the NBA doesn't have the same fashion rules as the NFHS.

Nor do I expect them to be the same.

When I do an NBA rule search on the internet, I find that while true undershirts are illegal (remember Patrick Ewing complaining his rookie NBA year), compression shirts for medical reasons are legal.

If this is true, why doesn't the NBA restrict the color of the under-compression shirts?
....
His crew is not going to know WHY. Might be hard to believe, but they (folks in the NBA pipeline) focus on WHAT the uniform/equipment rules are and HOW to enforce them. They save their WHY's and HOW COME's for play-calling discussions, such as the actual topic of this thread.

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:37pm
Water Cooler Discussion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043868)
His crew is not going to know WHY. Might be hard to believe, but they (folks in the NBA pipeline) focus on WHAT the uniform/equipment rules are and HOW to enforce them. They save their WHY's and HOW COME's for play-calling discussions, such as the actual topic of this thread.
They will certainly have more insight into my questions than I would, even if it's just based on an NBA referee informal around the water cooler discussion.

Many of us know why many of the rules that we use exist (intent and purpose). Why not the same for the NBA guys, especially the curious ones.

I know why the NFHS has it's undershirt rule, to allow officials to easily identify players on each team during fast paced action.

Raymond is correct, I did turn the topic a little sideways (heading toward NBA differences), and apologize it I have distracted from the purpose of my own thread.

Raymond Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043873)
They will certainly have more insight into my questions than I would, even if it's just based on an NBA referee around the water cooler discussion.
As usual, the point goes completely above your head. What insight are you looking for? They care about the WHY's of PLAY-CALLING. Referees at that level and aspiring for that level don't sit around talking about uniforms; when standing around a water cooler they discuss PLAY-CALLING.

WTH would an up-and-coming NBA official care about HOW COME the NBA has a certain uniform/equipment rule? Pestering somebody about that will guarantee a shortened career at that level.

JRutledge Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043873)
They will certainly have more insight into my questions than I would, even if it's just based on an NBA referee informal around the water cooler discussion.

Many of us know why the rules that we use exist (intent and purpose). Why not the same for the NBA guys, especially the curious ones.
I am sure they know but they probably do not obsess about it. Pro players are not worried about everyone looking the same. That is obvious unless you really are not paying attention. All that matters is the jersey and can it be seen. Even our rules with the NF are often unnecessary. Who cares if the arm sleeve matches the damn jersey. Does this prevent you from calling a foul?

Peace

Raymond Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043875)
I am sure they know but they probably do not obsess about it. Pro players are not worried about everyone looking the same. That is obvious unless you really are not paying attention. All that matters is the jersey and can it be seen. Even our rules with the NF are often unnecessary. Who cares if the arm sleeve matches the damn jersey. Does this prevent you from calling a foul?

Peace
I am friends with both of JUSATCOACH's sons and his nephew. I've been around them for plenty of conversations. For some strange reason, I've never heard why any level they worked had a certain uniform rule. What they do discuss is the proper enforcement of said rules so they can move on to more relevant officiating conversations.

Billy posts a great discussion play where respected officials have their own differing opinions on the play, yet he is obsessing about the NBA's undergarment rule.....SMFH.

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:50pm
Thank You ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043875)
I am sure they know but they probably do not obsess about it.
Thank you.

JRutledge Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043876)
I am friends with both of JUSATCOACH's sons and his nephew. I've been around them for plenty of conversations. For some strange reason, I've never heard why any level they worked had a certain uniform rule. What they do discuss is the proper enforcement of said rules so they can move on to more relevant officiating conversations.

Billy posts a great discussion play where respected officials have their own differing opinions on the play, yet he is obsessing about the NBA's undergarment rule.....SMFH.
He does that with a lot of topics. Takes the thing off topic about something no one but him seems to care about. I work football and did baseball for years before retiring and many things were different from the NF level to the other levels. It is how it works and there are many more rules differences in football than anyone could ever imagine here. If you obsessed over those rules, you would drive yourself crazy. We just try to in football know that the rule is different so we can apply it properly. Billy has too much damn time on his hands and so do I talking about it. LOL!!!

Peace

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:57pm
Hyperbole ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043876)
I am friends with both of JUSATCOACH's sons and his nephew. I've been around them for plenty of conversations.
While not anywhere near the same degree of friendship as Raymond, I am also a friend of justacoach, which is why I thought that I could ask him such a non-serious question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043876)
... he is obsessing about the NBA's undergarment rule ...
C'mon Raymond. Certainly you can tell the difference between obsession and curiosity.

Raymond Tue Jul 13, 2021 02:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043879)
...



C'mon Raymond. Certainly you can tell the difference between obsession and curiosity.
Your word count on the block/charge vs. your word count on the undergarment reveal the difference.

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:04pm
Retired ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043878)
Billy has too much damn time on his hands and so do I talking about it.
True. I've never met JRutledge, and have had no contact with him other than the Forum, but always considered him too young to be retired. He did once mention (showing his pride) that his parents were active in the civil rights movement of the past century so he may be older than I believe him to be.

Come to think of it, there are some regular Forum posters that seem to be able to post throughout the day, like me. Have we become a forum of retirees?

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:06pm
Out Of My Lane ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043880)
Your word count on the block/charge vs. your word count on the undergarment reveals the difference.
Great observation, and quite true. I'm always hesitant to post on levels outside of the NFHS.

JRutledge Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043881)
True. I've never met JRutledge, and have had no contact with him other than the Forum, but always considered him too young to be retired. He did once mention that his parents were active in the civil rights movement of the past century so he may be older than I believe him to be.

Come to think of it, there are some regular Forum posters that seem to be able to post all day like me. Have we become a forum of retirees?
I am likely older than you think but that has nothing to do with the last paragraph.

Peace

Raymond Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043882)
Great observation, and quite true. I'm always hesitant to post on levels outside of the NFHS.
Plays are plays. Discuss it at your level.

The NBA has employees who monitor social media. You are not going see any opinions on NBA plays on social media by officials in the NBA pipeline. There were a couple of NBA vets on Facebook who would occasionally explain why certain plays were called a certain way, but I've noticed that has tailed off recently.

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:17pm
Peace ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043881)
JRutledge ... did once mention (showing his pride) that his parents were active in the civil rights movement of the past century ...
I found it. Greatest JRutledge post ever on the Forum. A very rare peek into his private life outside of basketball. One can read the pride he has in his Mom and Dad, as he certainly should. I'm proud of them and I don't even know them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1009469)
I have been in several games where people did not celebrate the Anthem in several different ways. For one many people in certain places do not stand or put their hand over their heart. So if I got upset every time someone did not do something they were supposed to based on the standards of this practice, then I would have done something long time ago. Now I have been involved in games where some kind of "protest" has taken place in both football and basketball. My father is buried in a Veteran Cemetery and I grew up respecting this flag, but I had a mother that was in the Civil Rights Movement where she was in a lawsuit for discrimination when they segregated a school in Florida. So I want this country to uphold the standards they have set. And protest is supposed to be uncomfortable and supposed to draw attention ... But it is not my place to tell those what to do personally with their politics outside of the game. I am also a person that officiated both a football and basketball game at a school whose mascot was the "Rebel Flag" and as an African-American who is deeply offended by that flag ...

Raymond Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043881)
True. I've never met JRutledge, and have had no contact with him other than the Forum, but always considered him too young to be retired. He did once mention (showing his pride) that his parents were active in the civil rights movement of the past century so he may be older than I believe him to be.

Come to think of it, there are some regular Forum posters that seem to be able to post throughout the day, like me. Have we become a forum of retirees?
I'm retired, retired military. In 5 years, I'll add another retiree tag to my shingle after 21 years of federal civil service. I'm old enough that I was directly affected by Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1. I'm young enough that I can hold my own in talking sh!t about music, sports, and pop culture with Airmen who graduated high school during the Trump presidency.

I can post throughout the day because I work in I.T. and often have downtime while waiting for something to finish.

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:28pm
Fictitious Pseudonym ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043884)
The NBA has employees who monitor social media. You are not going see any opinions on NBA plays on social media by officials in the NBA pipeline.
Lowly IAABO, on both the local level, and international level, consisting of mostly high school officials, has strongly urged us to stay off of social media. That's why I don't post under my real name. I'd like to post under my real name and location, I feel like a coward with no conviction hiding behind a fictitious pseudonym, but I'm a rule follower, not a rebel.

BillyMac from a little corner of Connecticut. If I gave you any more information, then I would have to kill you.

Raymond Tue Jul 13, 2021 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1043887)
Lowly IAABO, on both the local level, and international level, consisting of mostly high school officials, has strongly urged us to stay off of social media. That's why I don't post under my real name. I'd like to post under my real name and location, I feel like a coward with no conviction hiding behind a fictitious pseudonym, but I'm a rule follower, not a rebel.

BillyMac from a little corner of Connecticut. If I gave you any more information, then I would have to kill you.
I switched to my real name so I that don't ever "hide behind the keyboard". It helps me in holding myself accountable and not posting anything I'm not willing to put my name behind.

I actually ran into a couple of Forum members this past weekend.

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 04:22pm
Dick Tracy ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043889)
I switched to my real name so I that don't ever "hide behind the keyboard". It helps me in holding myself accountable and not posting anything I'm not willing to put my name behind.
I fully understand and agree with your reasoning and wish I had the courage to do the same (true for all that post under their real name and location).

It doesn't take Dick Tracy to figure out who BillyMac, an IAABO member from a little corner of Connecticut really is, but it does give me some degree of plausible deniability and anonymity, at least enough to satisfy IAABO.

Anybody who private messages me on the Forum gets a full Monty reply. Wait? I'm being told ... Nudity? Really? Never mind.

https://tse1.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=300&h=300

BillyMac Tue Jul 13, 2021 05:27pm
Warning: Off Topic ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1043875)
All that matters is the jersey ..
Speaking of jerseys, for you baseball purists out there, if you haven't heard already, prepare yourself for a "uniform abomination" at tonight's Major League Baseball All Star Game.

JRutledge Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1043889)
I switched to my real name so I that don't ever "hide behind the keyboard". It helps me in holding myself accountable and not posting anything I'm not willing to put my name behind.

I actually ran into a couple of Forum members this past weekend.
This is why I have literally used my name for the past 25 years on these and like forums. I want to stand by every word and comment I say. So if I said something one time, I either learn from it or move on. And because I have used my real name, I have met people that come to me directly and respect what I said or know it was me who said it. So when I moved up the ladder, I would deal with people that knew I was speaking to what they saw me do.

I also run into people often when I go to camps or things across the country, people that have read this forum. I am very pleased with the legacy this has created and allowed me to do other things as a result of people know my words are from a real person. Not many people on this forum over the years can say that.

Peace


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