Ten Second Free Throw Violation ...
 

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-nets-to...131128201.html

As a basketball player, coach, and official for over fifty years, I've never called this violation, nor have I ever observed it being called.

Has anybody ever called this violation, or ever observed it being called?

Dwight Howard was called for it in an NBA game when he was playing with the Lakers.

There was one time I called a 10-second violation on a free thrower. I believe it was in a JV game, but it is still a very rare call.

Made this call in a summer league running clock game. There was about 18 seconds left in the first half when player recieved the ball at the line and the coach told him to wait. Ticked to 8 seconds and I blew it. Only time I have ever made the call and can confirm my 10 second counts was accurate.

Advantage ...
 

Running clock. Illegal advantage. I'd do the same.

Note: I've been fortunate not to have to work more than handful of running clock games in my forty years. Hated every single one. I always felt rushed.

Rushing (or just not taking one's time) through dead ball, clock not running situations is a recipe for a disaster.

get thee a metronome!
 

Yes, I had one in March this past season. When I reviewed the video, it turned out my 10-second count actually took 14 seconds. The free thrower was a football-player-turned-basketball-player to help fill out the team's roster, so that might have had something to do with it

I might have called it one other time and that would have been in the early '90s.

That is why, with any running clock league where I have a say, we stop the clock in the last 30 seconds of the first half. That avoids any of those shenanigans that are not in the spirit of the game and doing it for the last 30 seconds doesn't meaningfully impact the duration of the game.

Feels Like The First Time (Foreigner, 1977) ...
 

I've gotten up to eleven, or twelve, with my slow hand flick count, so it was probably a little higher on a clock. At eleven, or twelve, I'm saying to myself, "Please shoot the damn ball", and later, if I have to opportunity, I will privately say to the player. "Hey, you do know that you only have ten seconds to shoot a free throw and that I am counting. Right?".

I honestly don't know what I'd do if I ever got up to a thirteen, or fourteen, hand flick count with a player who wasn't obviously and purposely trying to be a knucklehead. I guess that I would have to call the violation. There's always a first time for everything.

If I did ever call it, I can 100% guarantee that my referee buddies would give me hard time at the local watering hole after the game. Probably get stuck buying a few beers.

That is why I hate running clock games. First, it encourages clock shenanigans that would not happen in regular games where the clock stops by rule, such as in the above post. Second, it leads to bad habits by officials (not signalling to stop the clock when the rules would otherwise require, e.g. on violations).

I was called for it once--while the ball was in the air on the shot. My Dad (who reffed a bit) said he was counting and it was 7-8 seconds and he was watching the ref who did not have a visible count. It was middle school; sometimes you just get what you get. But still, many years later, that really annoys me.

Got'cha ...
 

While I'm sure that many veteran officials have good reasons to make this call (running time, knuckleheads, etc.), I'm also sure that there are a few officials out there, probably mostly rookies, who make this call as a "Got'cha" call, as in, "Hey. Look at me. I know lots of basketball rules".

Hey so cal lurker, you weren't a middle school knucklehead, were you?

But the alternative is probably delaying the next game. Which may not even be basketball. It's a situation where authority over the space supersedes the rules of the game.

No, I was the quiet tall guy being double teamed off the ball all game.

(OK, I did get T'd up that game (deservedly) for my only outburst of the season--but that was much later in the game when the two guys doubling me were holding hands around me to prevent me from moving and I got called for a foul trying to go through their arms . . . it was just one of those days. . . .)

The Running Man (Arnold Schwarzenegger, 1987) ...
 

Agree, but a third alternative would be shorter periods, which is already legal under NFHS 5-5-3, even without state association authorization (fully realizing that most running time games are probably not interscholastic games under NFHS rules).

Also agree that the site director (not the officials) runs the show in most non-interscholastic games.

The Truth Always Comes Out ...
 

It was just called in the Brooklyn at Milwaukee NBA playoff game with 7:29 left in the 2nd quarter.

Bizarre ...
 

It was Giannis Antetokounmpo's free throw routine that started this thread.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba...ets/ar-AAKVByc

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/auY4EgMEd68" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 

The NBA told the Brooklyn Nets to stop displaying a timer on the scoreboard when Antetokounmpo was attempting free throws because the NBA decided that it didn't want teams inciting their fans to taunt opposing players. While I don't know much about the NBA, I'm sure that while the NBA can stop the scoreboard display, it probably can do little to stop fans from "counting down" on their own.

So let's move on to our NFHS high school games. Our state associations would probably frown upon such scoreboard displays, and site directors may, or may not (i.e, jeering during opponents free throws), want to control fans counting down, leaving little control by officials regarding such fan behavior.

So what can officials, the "Guardians of the game", control?

Players and bench personnel, including coaches. They are certainly under our control, but how much control?

What is the responsibility of a high school officials, under NFHS rules, controlling such counting down behavior from players and bench personnel, including coaches?

And not just ten second free throws, but also ten second backcourts, five second throwins, five second closely guarded, and three second lane counts.

Is counting down behavior from players and bench personnel, including coaches, any business of the officials?

Does any rule language (unsporting not limited to, attempting to influence an official’s decision, inciting undesirable crowd reactions, baiting, taunting; distract the free thrower) allow officials to intercede in such "counting down" situations with players and bench personnel, including coaches, even if it just a, "Cut that out", or is even that overreach and none of our damn business?

Coaches and bench personnel counting out loud for anything other than the game/shot clock winding down or preventing their own team from getting a violation is attempting to influence an official and is not acceptable in my games. I have T'd a coach for his 3-second count; it was during a team camp.

Thanks For Stepping Up ...
 

Agree. Nice to see we have at least two "Guardians of the game" Forum members (I'm sure that we have more). I thought for sure that I would get a "Mind our own damn business", "Not our job", or "Overly officious officiating" reply (and still may).

If a coach tells me to "Mind your own business" after I tell him to have his team stop counting for violations on the other team, he's getting a technical foul. First, he's attempting to influence an official's decision, and 2nd, he's addressing an official in a disrespectful manner.

I had a partner call this over 15 years ago. I just remember the routine was very unusual and the shooter even walked away from the line. Then he went back to the line and took a long time. It was probably 15 seconds and it is the only time in my career I have seen it called in person. I still joke with the official that he called this, but all in fun.

Peace

All In Fun ...
 

Thirty-five years ago, when the girls first switched to a smaller basketball, a good friend of mine tossed a girls ball to start a boys high school varsity game that wasn't discovered for several minutes. Our local guys, and a few guys from other Connecticut boards (word spread quickly across the state), never let him forgot about it. It was discussed at his wake. Here in Connecticut we're what'cha call experts when it comes to "chain yanking", and "ball busting".

Note: I recently told this story to a young rookie official who responded, "You mean the girls haven't always used a smaller ball?". Ouch. Thanks for reminding me that I'm old.

Senator, You're No Jack Kennedy (Senator Lloyd Bentsen, 1988) ...
 

Every once in a great while I'll have a player who wants the ball while he's a step outside the semicircle. As the lead, I'll tell him to get inside the circle because he's "not Larry Bird".

With apologies to Senator Lloyd Bentsen: "Young man, I officiated Larry Bird's games. I knew Larry Bird. Larry Bird was a friend of mine. Young man, you're no Larry Bird".

Like Bill Veeck's Pitchometer!

Genius, I Tell You, Genius ...
 

... and don't forget 3-foot-7 Eddie Gaedel coming to bat in uniform No. 1/8, "Grandstand Manager's Day", when fans could vote to implement in-game strategy by holding up placards, an exploding scoreboard at Comiskey Park, uniforms featuring players in short pants, and, best of all, the infamous 1979 "Disco Demolition Night," which resulted in a riot and a forfeit.

http://www.theheckler.com/wp-content...-SoxShorts.jpg

Haven't had to address this coming from bench personnel /knocks on wood, but I did have to stop a throw-in and tell a 6th grade girl in a CYO game to knock that off when she counted "1-2-3-4-5" rather quickly when she was defending a throw-in as I judged it an attempt to disconcert the thrower-in into thinking she had or was about to commit a violation.

I don’t agree. There is nothing illegal about distracting an opponent during a throw-in. Your only grounds for telling a counting player to stop is if you believe that it is an attempt to influence the official’s decision.

Or, if you deem it to be unsportsmanlike conduct.

I can’t agree with that take either. There is nothing unsporting about counting out loud while guarding an opponent. It’s the same as hollering, “Ball, ball, ball” or “Dead, dead, dead.” I’m of the opinion that it could only be penalized if it is deemed an attempt to influence the official.

Mean Official ...
 

I hope that you didn't make her cry.

Attempting To Influence An Official’s Decision Is Unsporting ...
 

I agree with both Camron Rust and Nevadaref.

Attempting to influence an official’s decision is, by definition, also an unsporting act.

I'm actually extrapolating, since it's unsporting for bench personnel, it's probably also unsporting for a player, based on "not limited to acts or conduct ...".

Good for goose. Good for gander.

10-5-B Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Attempting to influence an official’s decision.

10-4: A player must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as …

The debate between Camron Rust and Nevadaref is a fine distinction of semantics.

If the official believes that the "counter" is trying to influence the official, it's definitely unsporting; but if the official believes that the "counter" is trying to influence the opponent, it's probably not unsporting.

In my personal opinion, there's no place for this (Nevadaref quote) in basketball, but as an experienced basketball official, I'm not touching this with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.

Maybe in my very last game ever, just to take a stand and die on that hill.

Ball, Ball, Ball, Dead, Dead, Dead ...
 

And, at the risk of being labeled a sexist, it's mostly girls, most guys wouldn't be caught dead yelling, “Ball, ball, ball”, or “Dead, dead, dead.”

Just sayin'.

I don't get it...what's shady in basketball about "ball, ball, ball" or "dead, dead, dead"? "Ball" could be a player on offense calling for the ball, or on defense indi cating either that s/he's covering ball or that they need someone else to cover ball. "Dead" could mean any number of things to a particular team.

Nothing. And it's completely different from anything a referee would say (well, in that situation) -- but counting is something some officials do (even if they shouldn't) -- that's part of how I make a decision.

We Don't Need Another Hero (Tina Turner, 1985) ...
 

It's not what they say, but how they say it, and how they keep repeating it over and over, trying to get under their opponent's skin, trying to panic their opponent.

Maybe it's alright in some sports, but I personally don't believe that yelling in an opponent's face in an irritating manner when one is only inches away is good sportsmanship in a basketball game.

I would never teach, or allow, the middle school kids I coached to do it.

Is it taunting? Probably not (but it could be). Is is baiting? Probably not (but it could be).

Maybe it isn't unsporting, but it certainly doesn't demonstrate good sportsmanship.

Is this what Dr. Naismith envisioned? What would Jesus do (Jesus Shuttlesworth, Big State University basketball player)?

Like I said, I ain't a "guardian of the game" hero, and as an experienced official I'm not addressing this activity with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.

But I should.

Instigate, Retaliate ...
 

4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made. An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Ball handler A1 picks up her dribble and is unable to immediately find a teammate to pass to. Defender B1 gets inches away from A1 and yells "Dead. Dead. Dead" (repeating it over and over) directly into A1's face in an extremely loud, irritating, annoying, and obnoxious manner, attempting to get under A1's skin, and trying to panic A1. A1 punches B1.

Who gets tossed? Just A1, or both A1 and B1?

I'm not saying that I know the right answer, or that I believe that both should be tossed, but it's certainly worth thinking about.

Just sayin'.

Things That Make You Go Hmmm ...
 

This was not a rhetorical question. I am actually interested in the thoughts and opinions of Forum members. It doesn't have to be a debate, just thoughts and opinions.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.D...=0&w=187&h=161

I would only eject a non-violent fight participant if they did something unsporting which instigated the fight. I have not seen anything listed in this thread that would fit that criteria.

Committing An Unsporting Act ...
 

... An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Agree. That was the part of the rule that I keyed on, and I would hopefully have the presence of mind to remember that part of the rule, but it the heat of the moment ...

Baiting And/Or Taunting ...
 

However. The NFHS defines and gives examples of unsporting acts as baiting and/or taunting (among other acts).

Bait: To deliberately annoy or taut someone.

Taunt: A remark made in order to anger, wound, or provoke someone.

10-4-6-C: A player must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Baiting or taunting an opponent.

This action may not reach the level of taunting, but it certainly can be considered baiting (annoying), and thus, unsporting.

Devil's Advocate ...
 

I probably should have inserted a few question marks in my post. I'm not looking to debate, nor do I have an answer, nor have I taken a side, I'm just acting as the Devil's advocate.

Maybe others agree with my assessment that nothing that has been listed rises to the level of unsporting conduct?

Unsporting Conduct ...
 

And that group might include me.

Probably is a spectrum issue rather than a binary black/white issue.

Even if it is a spectrum issue, the decision has to be binary, unsporting, or not unsporting.

Note that I said "not unsporting" because I still don't believe that such activity deserves any sportsmanship (sporting) award.

Move The Needle ...
 

Provoke: Stimulate or give rise to a reaction or emotion, typically a strong or unwelcome one, in someone.

Another point that may move the needle a little, but probably not far enough.

NFHS definitions are often not the same as Funk and Wagnalls definitions.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.3...=0&w=182&h=174

We are aware of the definitions of different words.

We have all worked games where players have yelled "Ball, ball, ball!" or "Dead, dead, dead!"

You are not breaking new ground here. And to diffuse your usual "brand new officials" reason for continuing a dying conversation, hopefully they learn whether or not to address this situation at their local level, and not from someone on the internet who has an obviously minority opinion.

Exactly!!!
 

These are often times local standards that if called could get you fired or praised by different people. I think people should follow those first. I can say where I live if you call a T for some of these things suggested, you would get looked at as being rather technical. Just tell the players or teams to knock it off in some of those cases and move on. We make this stuff so complicated sometimes.

Peace

Not Usually Deemed Unsporting ...
 

My rulebook based, and experience based opinion actually aligns with such activity not usually being deemed unsporting and thus not deserving of being tossed as provoking a fight.

Any opinion that finds this activity unsporting has to rely on extrapolation and dictionary definitions of rulebook definitions, certainly not a great way to interpret rules.

That being said, I've seen some very loud, obnoxious, over the top "Dead. Dead. Dead ..." activity over forty years that not only tells teammates that the ball handler no longer has her dribble but that also has the purpose of irritating, annoying, and panicking the ball handler.

I've thought to myself "knucklehead" for forty years and let it go because, not only have I never observed it being addressed by any of my colleagues, but also because it never provoked a response.

But eventually, if and when a response, physical, or oral, is provoked for the first time in my career, I may have to change my "rulebook" interpretation of such activity, and rely on my "gut" experience for the good of that game, that night, with those players.

If this activity happens in one of my games to the greatest extreme that I've ever observed it in forty years, and the ball handler immediately punches the defender, I can see myself, in the heat of the moment, especially in an already chippy game, tossing both players, and after, when the smoke clears (and I expect that there will be lots of smoke), being able to defend my call to my assigner along the lines of unsporting taunting, or baiting, and not losing any sleep over my call that night.

My heat of the moment call of this very extreme, very rare, once in a thousand-plus game event may not be viewed favorably by anybody, on the Forum, or anywhere else, but it would definitely be one of those "had to be there" calls.

Even the many who totally disagree with me, that say that I have crossed some "guardian of the game" line, can't deny that such extreme activity, while maybe not unsporting, can certainly never be considered sporting.

I disagree on the use of the word "we." It's only one person.

Words Of Wisdom ...
 

Great advice from a successful, experienced official. Thanks JRutledge.

"Please don't make me decide it that is unsporting taunting, or baiting. Please just stop doing it."

Royals (Lorde, 2012) ...
 

It's the "royal we".

You are right it is "one person" here. But there are people like him making this complicated and trying to find ways to call stuff that is not either the standard or acceptable by most experienced officials. I have to talk them off the ledge ever summer with camps trying to control things that really most of us never care about. But your point is well taken.

Peace

That is not what I said. Some of these situations would not even raise an eyebrow, but you mentioned some things that would be normally apart of the game. Yelling "Ball, ball, ball" is not something I would even consider on any level as taunting or baiting. So many ways players communicate with players or teammates that if that is a problem, then other things would be an issue to if they were said out loud. It is different when counting on the bench certain things, because that could raise to another level of either taunting or trying to influence a call. Since there is not really a direct example used by the rules makers as to when these situations take place, if you think it is on the edge, tell them about it. Then if they refuse you have some tools in the toolbox. I never said ignore anything, but funny that I know I cannot hear everything and can misinterpret many actions, so in order to stop things you address it and usually it stops. Kind of like when players yell "And 1" after making a basket. Is that really taunting? And where does it say in the rulebook that must be a technical?

The best example I can give is when players started pulling out their jersey either towards the crowd or opponents, my state directly said that was OK if the players did that to their fans. If they did it towards opponents and opposing fans, then you could and should take action. But not if they run to or look towards their teammates and fans to pull out their school name or nickname on their jersey. Similar to the NCAA in football addressing very specific actions that would be considered unsporting acts before or after scoring a touchdown. Things, like throwing the ball in the air or using a fraternity sign, or spiking the ball, were specifically mentioned by their rules people to address these issues. Basketball often has nothing specifically mentioned and it is left to interpretation or league standard to address those situations. And still, the public thinks officials are being "technical" (pun intended) when addressing these issues.

But most of us know this fact. This seems to be a struggle for you and usually, we teach our younger officials what not to do or it might hurt them.

Peace

How Bizarre (OMC, 1995) ...
 

True, but every once great while something bizarre, really out of the ordinary happens that even very experienced officials have never ever dealt with before, forcing one to immediately "care".

And forcing us to read a whole bunch of posts from you because you won't let the conversation die a natural death. We obviously don't think or care about this situation as much as you do. Can't you respect that?

I officiate a lot of basketball at many levels, funny this is not something people are that concerned with hardly at all. Even newer officials do not do something they have not usually seen or been told to do. This is about you (as usual).

Peace

Peeling Layers From An Onion ...
 

Then why three replies about the "punch" (replies that I mostly agree with)?

Of course not, because it will probably never happen.

It was a hypothetical situation (with the punch) from the get go, intended to spark continued discussion about possible unsporting behavior, a change-up from the original discussion about possible unsporting "counting", perhaps even back tracking a little to whether "Dead. Dead. Dead ..." should always be considered "not unsporting".

And even though it was a hypothetical situation, I could (under extreme conditions) see this happen in a game that's already been chippy, that already has officials' antennae up.

Once In A Career ...
 

This past season I had a once in a career whistle on a foul by a defender on a start the third period division line throwin before I handed the ball to the inbounder. Defender had his back to me and thought that the inbounder had the ball. His foul was not your typical intentional foul, just over aggressive deny defense.

Took me a few seconds as I walked to the reporting area to figure it out, and to then explain my technical foul (calling it intentional dead ball contact) call to the coach. Not my finest hour. Should have talked to my partner, who later (too late) told me that I should of just called an inadvertent whistle and told the kid to cut it out.

You're right. I need to go back to my policy of not looking at a thread if you are the last person to post.

Just Sayin' ...
 

Devil's Advocate ...
 

The Rule is 10 seconds in NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and NBA/WNBA, and 5 second in FIBA. That said in the 46 years I officiated (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA) I had only one situation where the Rule came into play (an AAU Girls', which play using NCAA Women's, qualifier to the National): When my count reached 12 seconds and she was still bouncing the Ball, I put air in my whistle. No more problems after that.

MTD, Sr.

The Final Countdown (Europe, 1986) ...
 

Update:

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSt...-line-78498855

One more thing for whining HS parents to fuss about. I won’t be calling this.

One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine, Ten ...
 

Good point. Up until this recent Giannis Antetokounmpo controversy, most fans were probably unaware of the ten second free throw rule. As a player, and a coach, I was unaware of the rule and didn't know about it until I became a basketball official.

Now they're aware, and will become even more aware if the Milwaukee Bucks make it to the finals.