NCAAW Baylor/UConn
 

0.4 left in the game. You calling anything there?

If I'm the Lead on that play with that time and score scenario, I'm mirroring the ball and coming over to help referee that play.

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Nope. Two defenders and leaning back? Nope. Take a better shot.

Peace

And yes, I have a foul on that play. Post players always like to walk into shooters.

I have significant contact from A to B movement and also she didn't keep her arms vertical and came down on the shooter.

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Agree...there was clear contact. Too bad the C and L were stacked to it. The T needed to realized the game situation and that it was the only play that was going to matter. The T had the only angle that could clearly have seen it. The T needed to go get that. If the T had, the only ones talking about that play would be us (about whether it was a right for the T to go get it) instead of everyone else.

Yeah, I mentioned that somewhere else on social media. As soon as the ball handler went away from the Trail, the Trail needed to step down and be ready to help referee anything in the paint.

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Yeah there is contact, with not one, but two bigger players in her face trying to shoot? Yeah, that contact is going to happen. It was a horrible shot, absolutely horrible. They knew she was going to shoot and met her with their size. We do not expect that kind of contact in Men's games. This to me is a girl's or woman's basketball thing. Players fall we must have something or else. We would not be arguing if Shaq was defending Allen Iverson on a shot like this with his teammate Dennis Rodman right next to Shaq. We would say things I have heard over the years, "pass the ball" or "Do not take on bigger players on that shot." The play by the Baylor player was pure desparation, not a quality or very warranted shot.

Peace

The Nature Of Sports ...
 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExsIqJ3U...jpg&name=small

Baylor coach Kim Mulkey, who believed without question that Carrington was fouled on her drive down the left side.

"You don't need a quote from me," Mulkey said. "I've got still shots and video from two angles. One (UConn) kid hits her in the face, one kid hits her on the elbow."

Auriemma attributed the non-foul call to "the nature of sports," and challenged anyone who wished to check every single call throughout the game and add them up.

"I mean, you could go back and forth, the whole thing," Auriemma said. "The bottom line is the officials did what they're going to do. It is what it is. I'm not going to sit here and apologize for it. And if people are going to want to talk about that the rest of the week, you're welcome to do that."

Video: https://twitter.com/i/status/1376704066668093445

picture worth a 1000 words. Hand on the elbow. Defenders outside their vertical plane. FOUL! Unfortunately, live speed and poor positioning made this hard to see.

A discussion can be had on whether the offensive player's contact caused the defenders' hands to come down to make contact.

Their torsos are not vertical. They are leaning forward. Contact by an offensive player would not cause that.

I tend to agree with you. I feel like if you called this in a men’s game, especially at that point in the game, it would be considered a “bail out” foul by a clinician or assigner. It was a horrible play-call and a desperation shot. I have somewhat reconsidered that position given that I have heard from multiple men’s officials who believe it’s a foul (including this thread), but I’m still not convinced I would have called anything.

I also don’t really care what a still picture shows. We don’t get to officiate frame-by-frame and if the contact with the defender’s torso caused the arms to not be vertical, a still frame is not going to tell that story.

I've called this foul plenty of times. Post players like to walk into shooters with their hands up thinking that absolves them from illegal contact. They also like to straighten their arms up after contact as if they didn't come down on the shooter.

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There are plays where that can be discussed. They are plays where the offense is moving into the defender and causes the arms to collapse. That contact usually causes the head and shoulders to move forward as well.

I don't see that at all on this play. On this play only the arms come down.

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The problem with only pictures are we are seeing only a moment in time. If the defenders contacted the ball mostly and not anything else, then there was contact after the shooter forces the shot, that is a different spin on the play. Even if the arm was contacted first and then contact with the ball, that again is a different spin on the play. I will post a video of the other angle and show how much there was no contact until the blocked ball started. This to me was more about her taking on bigger players and not getting off a good shot. She was not getting off a good shot anyway and we would ignore this easily if the ball it touched or mostly touched, especially first.

This is the kind of foul I expect of those that primarily work girl's or women's games. Because again if a bigger men's player defends and even makes slight contact with other parts of the body, we definitely say, "Play on." And if you call a foul, they will directly tell you about bailing out players and marginal contact. I even had a foul call posted on my site several months back and the contact was on the wrist and not even the ball on a 3 point shot and people complained that the ball was gone and it had no influence on the play. This was not that at all. That very same official that made that call I just referenced is my supervior in one of my leagues. I had a play a couple of years ago where I had an A to B contact play, was told that the play was not a foul by my supervisor and by others and there was no ball contact whatsoever. But when I made the call, I got so much shit about it, I posted it on a website to ask for opinions. More contact there than on this play in the Baylor UConn game for sure.

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Peace

Different Format ...
 

The Entire Play ...
 

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From this video, it appears to me that the Center did get straight-lined.

Even with the limitations of a still photo, combine the still photo (far above) together with the live video, and the replay video from the near side and far side, to get the best idea (short of new videos from new angles) of what really happened, something the Lead (who didn't rotate over to the ball side) and the Center (straight-lined) were unable to see.

Trail maybe had the best angle but was she too far away to make a game saving call?

You're never "too far away to make a game saving call." Especially when you have the best look on the crew.

But you had better be correct if you are the furthest away and putting air in the whistle with 0.4 left in the Elite Eight.

This is not a "strike down the middle" like the Auburn/Virginia play a couple years ago IMO. I just talked to a women's NCAA official who thought a no-call was correct. But I have also talked to peers who feel there had to be a whistle here. I guess our NCAAW Forum members will have to let us know if this play makes next season's preseason video.

I have seen this play about 3 different angles. The angle from the picture that you and everyone has shown to say it was a foul. The endline angle which I made a video showing the ball being touched by the defender first. And the camera feed angle from the live action.

I think it is not a foul at all and we are playing the "There was contact" game that is bogus. Of course there was contact, two bigger players are defending a shot.

Peace

I work men's college basketball games. The UConn/Baylor play, the Oregon State block shot followed by the hit to the arm (this season's tournament), and the play Jeff just posted where the player gets hit in the head are fouls to me. That is based on watching videos of each play. The play from Goshen versus Grace should not have been a foul because the defender jumped straight up vertically with both hands above his head.



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I agree, but still 4-27 (or the NCAA Women's equivilent) applies. ;)

She is absolutely moving forward, but she does not make any contact with the player until she tops the ball. And that is usually not how A to B contact is judged at that level when there is a clear play on the ball. Women do not usually do that contact as high in the air.

And it is a great girl's basketball call that would be scolded if called in the very same situation in a boy's or men's game. Been there and called some BS and was told about it directly. I am not stating anything I have not experienced and told why I should lay off that call at both the high school and college levels.

Peace

I think he is talking about a play I posted earlier in the tournament, but have not put up on YouTube yet (I will but the CBS gets on my nerves).

I would agree with him it is similar, but that to me was two different acts. One guy blocked the ball and the other came over and hit the player in the head and arm I believe.

Peace

I would not get scolded for making that call in any of my NCAA Men's basketball games or boys HS games.



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I would. It would start with the coaches, then the fans (don't care about them but mentioning it for context), then later some of my partners and supervisor. Happened a few times. ;)

Peace

I also have more of a foul on #20 for hitting elbow than I do on the other player for the body contact. Neither defender touched the ball.

If the Lead moves with the play, he sees that hit to the elbow.

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Then we do not call very many fouls as a community. Again when you show me a block that does not involve contact of some kind, then I will show you a bunch of free throw we do not reward. Again, all contact is never a foul. Even the airborne shooter rule does not say any contact is a foul. That is why 4-27 is there, clearly.

Peace

U Can't Touch This (MC Hammer, 1990) ...
 

You could be correct about #20 Olivia Nelson-Ododa (the elbow hitter).

#3 Aaliyah Edwards did get her hand on the ball before it was released. Not a block, just a touch before the ball was released, while still in Carrington's hands.

Protect The Airborne Shooter ...
 

Protect does not mean to call every single instance of contact a foul. Never did. It means to stay with the the airborne shooter and watch for illegal contact that creates an defensive advantage, or an offensive disadvantage, as well considering landing spot safety concerns. It also means that for a second, or two, to let your partner(s) worry about the rebounding fouls.

In Carrington's case, she hadn't even released the ball when she got pushed, certainly a illegal disadvantage for an airborne shooter.

Don’t Put Anything In Your Ears That’s Smaller Than Your Elbow …
 

It's certainly easy to see the still photo. Too bad the Lead, or the Center, didn't (or couldn't) see it live.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExsIqJ3U...jpg&name=small

Agreed -- and you can see it more on the end-line angle that's in the video that BM posted recently than I could in the initial view from the twitter feed.

Foul on #3
 

I'm fairly certain my NCAA-W supervisors would want me to call that a foul. In real time, the first time I'm seeing that video I have a block on #3 for walking under the shooter. By stepping forward, she did not maintain LGP and failed to give the shooter a space to land - that's my explanation to a coach.

The whole 'what happens up top' is not part of any women's pregame discussion I've ever had... happy to hear dissenting opinions.

Best thread in post.

BM - This one of the best threads we have had in the past year. There is a lot of philosophy being thrown around. Each point is valid. But you posting 5 times in a row gets annoying. You may think it is humorous but it makes a lot of the threads difficult to read.

We see plays like this not called all the time. Why is this so special about the airborne shooter? We see airborne shooters get their shot blocked and fall with some contact and nothing happens. No one makes a fuss about it. But because this is a high profile situation, everyone now wants to go to the shooter must be protected at all cost. Just find it funny how I watch games, show plays and see how the game is called much of the time and now this is a bridge too far.

Just funny to me. This is basically a call if was in the Men's game no one would care. IJS

Peace

I really wish someone--a moderator?--would put a place a limit on a member's daily posts, the number of times a poster can post in any given thread, and a ban on the use of non-relevant graphics.

My opinion about this play would be the same if were a Men's game. I've seen similar end-of-game situations discussed in clinics and camps I've attended over the years.

Been to many clinics where plays like that was discussed and told to allow the bigger players to be big. I was told personally about not putting fouls on bigger players even if there is a little contact.

Peace

When I say that she went against bigger players, it is without question a chance that the bigger players will contact you and even knock you down. So again the ball was contacted before anybody contact and 4-27 still applies when you have a blocked shot when the ball was touched first.

Peace

Then it's a regional thing. But it's definitely not "it wouldn't be called in a Men's game" thing because I've heard and talked with plenty of supervisors and NBA/D1 officials who would say to put a whistle on this play.

It might very well be. That is certainly a possible explanation, but when I talked with officials on both high school and college experience (mostly off-line) there was much more talk about why this is not a foul.

So I guess this is a foul too?

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Peace

Not Released ...
 

The ball was certainly touched first, but she still had the ball in her hands (the touch didn't dislodge the ball) when she got pushed. This is not one of those plays where the shot is released and then the ball is blocked and then the contact occurs after the release such that the contact doesn't affect the trajectory of the shot. This is not one of those plays.

I have preached this philosophy for years. Ball first, then unless the contact is unnecessary or not apart of the original play, incidental.

You can disagree, I stand by my position on this. All contact is not a foul or illegal, that is in the rules too.

Peace

Little Contact ...
 

Believe you. Key word: Little.

Agree with this point. The shooter withstood the ball contact and continued to shoot after that. The only way ball contact first is not a foul is when that ball contact dislodges the ball. If the shooter plays through that, subsequent contact is independent of the ball contact.

I've seen 3 plays so far tonight in the Men's final with 17 minutes still to play where defenders got all ball on blocked shots and were called for fouls. Nowhere close to the contact in OP''s play.

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Were the fouls because of body contact or because they felt the blocks were with the arm or wrist? The ones I saw it was debatable if they got the ball first at all. I will admit I did not see blocks with body contact.

Peace

Chiefly for example was the block by Zags guard on dunk attempted by Baylor big @ 850 clock. All ball, perhaps

Zags guard blocked Baylor big dunk attempted, likely all ball.

Very Good officiated game, strong mechanics by the one ref for sure.

I want to see a few of those blocks. It did look like they called some fouls on clean or mostly clean blocks. But those are hard live action sometimes if you judge they get the wrist or the ball first.

Peace