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-   -   NFHS Substitution Rule (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105333-nfhs-substitution-rule.html)

cozzmokramer Tue Mar 09, 2021 08:31pm

NFHS Substitution Rule
 
Anyone ever seen this rule requested by a team captain?

[Rule 3-3-1e]
The official shall grant a captain's request for a defensive match-up if
three or more substitutes from the same team enter the game during a
substitution opportunity.

JRutledge Tue Mar 09, 2021 09:40pm

Like maybe once. And it was after a change or clarification of the rule like the next year after the wording change that was made. Never had it happen since.

Peace

crosscountry55 Tue Mar 09, 2021 09:47pm

Nope. I think this is one of those relic rules that may have been exercised more frequently decades ago when being a captain meant something and the officials actually remembered who that person was more than three seconds after the pre-game conference ended.


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Raymond Tue Mar 09, 2021 09:57pm

There is a local coach who has an extremely high basketball IQ, officiated for awhile, and had a cup of tea as an NBA player who has utilized it on multiplre occasions. I'm convinced that sometimes he does it just to see if an official knows the rule.

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cozzmokramer Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:14pm

Is this still a rule or has it been changed?

Camron Rust Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042042)
Is this still a rule or has it been changed?

Still a rule.

bob jenkins Wed Mar 10, 2021 08:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042037)
Anyone ever seen this rule requested by a team captain?

[Rule 3-3-1e]
The official shall grant a captain's request for a defensive match-up if
three or more substitutes from the same team enter the game during a
substitution opportunity.

All the time.

cozzmokramer Wed Mar 10, 2021 08:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1042044)
All the time.

I've never seen it requested. So how long does the team captain get to make a matching substitution(s)? Wouldn't this be a way essentially gain extra time outs and/or to slow down teams who like to run 5 players in at a time 5 like Grinnell?

Raymond Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042045)
I've never seen it requested. So how long does the team captain get to make a matching substitution(s)? Wouldn't this be a way essentially gain extra time outs and/or to slow down teams who like to run 5 players in at a time 5 like Grinnell?

If you run in 5 subs, the opponent is allowed to matchup. Maybe Grinnell should run in 2 subs at a time to avoid the delays.

SC Official Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:10am

I must have missed something. Who is Grinnell?

BillyMac Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:23am

Mistakenly Disappeared ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1042038)
... after a change or clarification of the rule like the next year after the wording change that was made ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042042)
Is this still a rule or has it been changed?

Not sure it was changed, or clarified, but it did mistakenly disappear from the rulebook for a few years. After a high school coach friend of mine asked me if it was a real rule or just something the guys at the YMCA made up, I tried to look it up and it was gone. My local interpreter looked into it and suggested that I contact the NFHS, which I did and it was put back into the rulebook in 2003-04.

BillyMac Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:29am

Black Line All The Way Around ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1042040)
... decades ago when being a captain meant something and the officials actually remembered who that person was more than three seconds after the pre-game conference ended.

Connecticut COVID protocols include only allowing the referee, and the head coach and one captain from each team at the pregame coaches-officials-captains pregame meeting. Makes for a streamlined meeting. Let's keep the guideline next year.

BillyMac Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:32am

Three Jump Ball Circles ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042045)
So how long does the team captain get to make a matching substitution(s)?

We used to do these lineup matchups around one of the three jump ball circles, back when there were three jump ball circles.

bob jenkins Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042045)
I've never seen it requested. So how long does the team captain get to make a matching substitution(s)? Wouldn't this be a way essentially gain extra time outs and/or to slow down teams who like to run 5 players in at a time 5 like Grinnell?

The rule does not mention anything about "matching substitutions."

SC Official Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1042050)
Connecticut COVID protocols include only allowing the referee, and the head coach and one captain from each team at the pregame coaches-officials-captains pregame meeting. Makes for a streamlined meeting. Let's keep the guideline next year.

Let's get rid of the pregame shenanigans period.

JRutledge Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1042055)
Let's get rid of the pregame shenanigans period.

It has not hurt anything in this past year. We have officiated and been able to control the very same things we did before.

Peace

cozzmokramer Wed Mar 10, 2021 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1042052)
The rule does not mention anything about "matching substitutions."

Sorry that was me interpreting what it may look like. It does say "defensive matchup". Either way I don't see why it's still a rule.

cozzmokramer Wed Mar 10, 2021 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1042047)
I must have missed something. Who is Grinnell?

Simplified explanation of Grinnell style (sometimes called 'The System') is subbing 4-5 players every minute or so to keep players fresh so they can face guard full court press to wear opponents out.

BillyMac Wed Mar 10, 2021 02:00pm

Confused In Middle School ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042060)
Either way I don't see why it's still a rule.

Players at the middle school level and below can often get confused when playing man to man defense and a lot of opposing substitutes are beckoned.

Altor Wed Mar 10, 2021 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042060)
Sorry that was me interpreting what it may look like. It does say "defensive matchup". Either way I don't see why it's still a rule.

It's not a big deal. You probably do it now without an official request from the captain and don't even realize it.

R: [beckons 3 subs from H], waits for subs to enter and replaced players to leave, points to partner to put the ball in play.
V-Captain: Wait a second sir, we want to make sure we are matched up properly.
V-Cap (to teamates): I have 12. Who has 15?
V20: I do.
V25: I have 32.
V-Cap (to official): Thank you. I think we're ready.

JRutledge Wed Mar 10, 2021 02:44pm

Hope this helps.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1042047)
I must have missed something. Who is Grinnell?

Grinnell is a college in Iowa at the D3 level (Midwest Conference) and they run 5 subs in like every minute. The goal is to play everyone on the bench for the most part and shoot the ball within like 7 seconds of the possession. A lot of threes and a lot of up and down basketball. They can easily score over 100 points and often play little defense because the goal is to outscore you and wear you down. Some times try to play with them and others try to slow the ball down a little to control more of the tempo. I have had the opportunity to officiate Grinnell, but there are a few schools that used this system at the high school level. There was a team in the south suburbs that ran this system and he was a coach that played at Depaul and happened to send like two sons to the Grinnell program. I think I was on a game where they set the state record for 3 point shots and makes in a game about 8 or 9 years ago.

But all that being said even when this system was used, there were programs that never asked for match-up requests. So it is really not a very widely used rule and certainly not used at that level.

Peace

bob jenkins Wed Mar 10, 2021 06:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by billymac (Post 1042063)
players [deleted] can often get confused when playing man to man defense and a lot of opposing substitutes are beckoned.

fify

BillyMac Wed Mar 10, 2021 07:20pm

Politically Correct ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1042068)
fify

Person to person defense?

SC Official Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1042066)
Grinnell is a college in Iowa at the D3 level (Midwest Conference) and they run 5 subs in like every minute. The goal is to play everyone on the bench for the most part and shoot the ball within like 7 seconds of the possession. A lot of threes and a lot of up and down basketball. They can easily score over 100 points and often play little defense because the goal is to outscore you and wear you down. Some times try to play with them and others try to slow the ball down a little to control more of the tempo. I have had the opportunity to officiate Grinnell, but there are a few schools that used this system at the high school level. There was a team in the south suburbs that ran this system and he was a coach that played at Depaul and happened to send like two sons to the Grinnell program. I think I was on a game where they set the state record for 3 point shots and makes in a game about 8 or 9 years ago.

But all that being said even when this system was used, there were programs that never asked for match-up requests. So it is really not a very widely used rule and certainly not used at that level.

Peace

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Raymond Thu Mar 11, 2021 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzmokramer (Post 1042060)
Sorry that was me interpreting what it may look like. It does say "defensive matchup". Either way I don't see why it's still a rule.

Because coaches still want the rule in place?


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