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-   -   Fun With Creating Separation … (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105321-fun-creating-separation.html)

BillyMac Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:36am

Fun With Creating Separation …
 
Does offensive player foul before catching the ball? On an inbounds pass, player receiving ball contacts her opponent. Was this legal incidental contact? Was this a team control foul?

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...LZzSadAA%3D%3D

Two choices: This is a team control foul. This is incidental contact.

My comment: This is a team control foul. White #11 gained a slight advantage after using both of her arms to create separation between herself and Black #12.

Thoughts?

Nevadaref Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:41am

The contact with her hands is borderline. Why not make it easy on yourself and just call the traveling violation?

BillyMac Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:24am

Dead Ball Travel ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1041880)
The contact with her hands is borderline. Why not make it easy on yourself and just call the traveling violation?

Borderline? Agree.

Missed the travel. Good eye Nevadaref. Let's see if IAABO picks that up in its play commentary.

(In my defense, the ball would have become dead with the team control foul and one can't travel with a dead ball.)

JRutledge Mon Mar 01, 2021 01:16pm

It probably is a foul and would have no issue if called.

Not so sure about the travel violation, not on that movement, but that is me.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Mar 01, 2021 01:57pm

Drags Along The Floor ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1041886)
Not so sure about the travel violation, not on that movement, but that is me.

White #11 catches (possesses) the ball with her left foot on the floor, and then subsequently her right foot touches the floor, making her left foot the pivot foot, which she subsequently lifts and drags along the floor.

However, the Trail was right there and had a great look and he passed on a call, so a no call may be plausible.

Two simple plays (so I thought) posted today, and there's a lot to see, calls, and no calls.

Basketball officiating is really hard. Good basketball officiating is really, really hard.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.B...=0&w=300&h=300

BillyMac Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:18am

IAABO Survey Says …
 
Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO International interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...LZzSadAA%3D%3D

IAABO International Play Commentary: Correct Answer: This is a team control foul.

In this play, let's think about the mindset of the player receiving the ball. She reaches out and slightly contacts the defender before receiving the ball. Why do you suppose she did it? In her mind, do you think she needed that slight contact to ensure she would be able to get the ball and prevent the defender from deflecting the pass?

Keep in mind, the severity of contact is not the primary factor if a foul occurs on this play. Was the defender inhibited by the contact? Did the offensive player gain an advantage by the contact? If this is the case, this is a pushing foul on the offensive team, and a team control foul should be assessed. This is the ruling 65% of respondents stated was the correct ruling.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is a team control foul 66% (including me). This is incidental contact 34%.

Camron Rust Sun Mar 07, 2021 03:11pm

At the time of the contact, the ball was already well over B's head. She wasn't catching it either way. B still jumped cleanly and back towards the opponent. There was probably a small nudge there but it had zero impact on the play. White was going to catch that ball regardless. I'm probably going incidental.

BillyMac Sun Mar 07, 2021 06:58pm

Contact On Inbound Plays ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1042011)
There was probably a small nudge there ...

I find that small nudges, tiny pushes, short extension of arms, minor holds, etc. (not even considering screens), on inbounds plays, usually by the offense; often planned, predetermined, and practiced; and executed deliberately and intentionally; to be among the most difficult contact plays for me to adjudicate.

bob jenkins Mon Mar 08, 2021 07:48am

As a group, I think that we tend to "let more go" during throw-in plays than during other aspects of the game.

BillyMac Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:51am

Secretly Thought ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1042015)
I find that small nudges, tiny pushes, short extension of arms, minor holds, etc. (not even considering screens), on inbounds plays, usually by the offense; often planned, predetermined, and practiced; and executed deliberately and intentionally; to be among the most difficult contact plays for me to adjudicate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1042017)
As a group, I think that we tend to "let more go" during throw-in plays than during other aspects of the game.

Thank you for saying out loud what I have always secretly thought and was afraid to say out loud.

Why do we do this?

BillyMac Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:53pm

Just Looking For The Most Egregious Behavior ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1042017)
As a group, I think that we tend to "let more go" during throw-in plays than during other aspects of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1042020)
Why do we do this?

... because in a two person game (as are most high school level games and below), while one official is watching the inbounder (counting five, watching the line, watching a single defender), the other official has to watch eight players all moving in multiple directions over a very expansive area, purposely trying to block each other to prevent each other from going where they want to go, and purposely trying to create space, resulting in the non-administering official just looking for the most egregious behavior?

Could that be why?

RefRich Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1042022)
... because in a two person game (as are most high school level games and below),

How many states are still using two-person on the varsity level? I don't remember the last time I worked two-person on a varsity game.

BillyMac Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:39am

Let's Not Be Varsity-Centric ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RefRich (Post 1042048)
How many states are still using two-person on the varsity level? I don't remember the last time I worked two-person on a varsity game.

Don't know, but let's not be varsity-centric. Just looking at interscholastic games alone there are a lot of junior varsity, freshman, and middle school games that probably only use two officials. Add in recreation (adult and youth), travel, AAU, etc., and the percentage of games officiated by only two officials below the collegiate level becomes enormous.

https://live.staticflickr.com/3775/1...8029f778_m.jpg

RefRich Wed Mar 10, 2021 09:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1042053)
Don't know, but let's not be varsity-centric. Just looking at interscholastic games alone there are a lot of junior varsity, freshman, and middle school games that probably only use two officials. Add in recreation (adult and youth), travel, AAU, etc., and the percentage of games officiated by only two officials below the collegiate level becomes enormous.

Good point!


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