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-   -   Three Seconds Not One's Best Call Of The Night ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105236-three-seconds-not-ones-best-call-night.html)

BillyMac Mon Jan 11, 2021 08:44pm

Three Seconds Not One's Best Call Of The Night ...
 
I've watched several IAABO International and local IAABO board Zoom "webinars" that have suggested that officials should never talk/warn/encourage/coach players to avoid three second violations during live ball situations at all levels of play.

For me, this is pretty much exactly the opposite of what I learned as a rookie official forty years ago.

Comments and thoughts from IAABO and non-IAABO Forum members?

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.i...=0&w=163&h=144

SC Official Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:28pm

Just tonight I yelled “Get out!” at a player who was close. He got the message.

crosscountry55 Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:29pm

You have to let three-second violations find you. If you go looking for them, you’re bound to miss a lot of other far more important stuff.

That matches my current association’s expectation. A few years back, one of our junior leagues implored us to call more three-second violations, probably because all of the parents remember every third whistle being a three-second violation 30+ years ago when they played. As if the improvement in game flow since the late 1980s is some kind of mortal wound to their basketball souls!

Anyway, we gave ‘em what they asked for....and they were sorry. [emoji38]


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JRutledge Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:49pm

I just say "Lane, lane, lane" and they get out. Just like I tell them other things that stop or avoid fouls or violations. Unless someone bigger tells us to do differently, then I am going to keep doing that. This sounds like high school purest saying this mess.

This is what I am talking about Billy. ;)

Peace

Nevadaref Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:24am

I agree with you that the philosophy has changed from thirty years ago. The current instruction is to just officiate the game and to refrain from coaching the players. It is not our role in the game to provide instruction.

I too learned under the philosophy of talking players out of violations or fouls, but have transitioned to not doing that anymore.

Today, I simply pass on calling fouls or violations which are trivial or have no impact upon the conduct of the game. So I would just ignore the three-second violation, until it was blatant or created a clear advantage for the offensive player.

The current philosophy is that we should stick to calling the game and that the players and coaches will adjust to the calls. The old verbal instruction is passé. Now it is simply blow the whistle.

SC Official Tue Jan 12, 2021 07:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1040918)
I agree with you that the philosophy has changed from thirty years ago. The current instruction is to just officiate the game and to refrain from coaching the players. It is not our role in the game to provide instruction.

I too learned under the philosophy of talking players out of violations or fouls, but have transitioned to not doing that anymore.

Today, I simply pass on calling fouls or violations which are trivial or have no impact upon the conduct of the game. So I would just ignore the three-second violation, until it was blatant or created a clear advantage for the offensive player.

The current philosophy is that we should stick to calling the game and that the players and coaches will adjust to the calls. The old verbal instruction is passé. Now it is simply blow the whistle.

YMMV. It is still frequently encouraged in my neck of the woods to talk players out of silly fouls and violations.

BigT Tue Jan 12, 2021 09:24am

Question

If one team has a great post player and great outside shooters. And the post player stays in the key causing the defense to withdraw from guarding the 3 point line providing shot after shot. Isn't that an advantage? Remember a NFHS article stating that was causing an advantage even if it didn't go to the big guy.

I found it interesting and will probably not be considered an advantage by most here. I did find it interesting.

I do agree it should only be caused if it gives an advantage. Any thoughts?

JRutledge Tue Jan 12, 2021 09:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT (Post 1040925)
Question

If one team has a great post player and great outside shooters. And the post player stays in the key causing the defense to withdraw from guarding the 3 point line providing shot after shot. Isn't that an advantage? Remember a NFHS article stating that was causing an advantage even if it didn't go to the big guy.

I found it interesting and will probably not be considered an advantage by most here. I did find it interesting.

I do agree it should only be caused if it gives an advantage. Any thoughts?

I guess it would be but rarely do many just sit in the lane. Heck in the game today who is using a big man as a big part of their offense? This is a drive and kick game, not a grind it out in the post game. So not much of an issue anymore. But that being said if they are taught properly, they are likely on the outskirts of the lane anyway. Part of calling this is where they are located too. I have not changed anything I have done in over 20 years from my original philosophy.

Peace

BillyMac Tue Jan 12, 2021 09:58am

Advantage/Disadvantage ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT (Post 1040925)
...should only be caused if it gives an advantage.

... it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

My proudest moment on the Forum was when I finally convinced Jurassic Referee that advantage/disadvantage not only applied to fouls, but also to some violations. Forum members seldom won debates with the very knowledgeable Jurassic Referee.

When a team is gaining an advantage by having a player parked in the lane for more than three seconds, I sound the whistle and call the violation immediately, with no warning.

Another example of a no warning immediate whistle three second violation for me is when a player gets the ball in the lane after being there for a few seconds, makes a move to shoot, decides not to shoot, and passes to a teammate.

On the other hand, when a player just aimlessly wanders around and has one foot, or part of a foot, in the lane, maybe after setting, or attempting to set, a screen, at the low post, or at the elbow, I almost always give a warning. However once a coach yells at me to call the violation, I may not use the warning option, observe what going on, and possibly go straight to the whistle.

BillyMac Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:05am

The Good Old Days ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040930)
... in the game today who is using a big man as a big part of their offense? This is a drive and kick game, not a grind it out in the post game.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.k...=0&w=265&h=178

Everybody pulls for David, nobody roots for Goliath.” (Wilt Chamberlain)

BillyMac Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:59am

Be Careful What You Ask For (1 Samuel 8) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1040916)
... one of our junior leagues implored us to call more three-second violations ... Anyway, we gave ‘em what they asked for... and they were sorry.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M...=0&w=300&h=300

Indianaref Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1040915)
Just tonight I yelled “Get out!” at a player who was close. He got the message.

I never yell "Get Out" because after all they are allowed to be there

BillyMac Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:49am

Allowed ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianaref (Post 1040937)
... they are allowed to be there

Not if he's an offensive player, and the ball is in his team's control in his team's frontcourt, and he has been in the lane for more than three seconds, and he and is team are gaining an advantage not intended by rule, unless he is dribbling in or moving immediately to try for goal.

Raymond Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040938)
Not if he's an offensive player, and the ball is in his team's control in his team's frontcourt, and he has been in the lane for more than three seconds, and he and is team are gaining an advantage not intended by rule, unless he is dribbling in or moving immediately to try for goal.

I don't yell anything. Only time I raise my voice so that everybody can hear it is when players are trying to stir up trouble.

If a player is in the paint too long and it has no effect on the play I will quietly say something to them one-on-one at the earliest opportunity. But a warning isn't a something that should be expected before a 3 second call can be made.

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BillyMac Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:45am

Aimlessly And Clueless ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040939)
... a warning isn't a something that should be expected before a 3 second call can be made.

Agree. Well worded.

But if a player is just aimlessly and cluelessly wandering around in the lane for three seconds, not gaining any advantage, I might give a warning to player (and hit him with a violation if he doesn't comply) to preempt a coach from "interacting" with me.


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