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-   -   Drive & Push-Off (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105227-drive-push-off.html)

crosscountry55 Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:59pm

Drive & Push-Off
 
From JRutís page. Thought it was a good one for discussion, especially in terms of positioning, believability, etc. But also in terms of ďwould you have called that in your game?Ē

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Camron Rust Sun Jan 03, 2021 01:48am

I am SO glad that this is getting called like this now. It hasn't been long since this was almost universally called a block despite the defender meeting all the requirements spelled out in the LGP rule. It is good that the "he wasn't set" mentality is almost completely gone.

Raymond Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:44am

Unrelated to the call, the Lead should have aborted his rotation once A1 began his drive.

JRutledge Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040779)
Unrelated to the call, the Lead should have aborted his rotation once A1 began his drive.

I agree.

Peace

SC Official Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1040775)
I am SO glad that this is getting called like this now. It hasn't been long since this was almost universally called a block despite the defender meeting all the requirements spelled out in the LGP rule. It is good that the "he wasn't set" mentality is almost completely gone.

Amen. I work with too many officials who would call this a block but itís getting better.

When John Adams was the national coordinator he pushed for more blocks to be called which probably led to that mentality.

JD Collins, on the other hand, has pushed penalizing offense-initiated contact on legal defenders. That is the way it should be.

crosscountry55 Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:28pm

Would anyone have gone with a no-call here? That was my initial gut feeling. Certainly not a block, but I donít think thereís clear advantage gained by the ball handler. Iím seeing more step-back here than leverage.

Corollary: In football, would this be enough for offensive pass interference? Probably not.


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BillyMac Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:45pm

The Academy Award For Best Actor Goes To ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1040784)
Would anyone have gone with a no-call here ...I donít think thereís clear advantage gained by the ball handler. Iím seeing more step-back here than leverage.

I was thinking the same thing myself, but I'm a high school official not familiar with what is deemed an advantage or a disadvantage in college games.

If this occurred in my high school game, it would be a tough call either way, player control, or incidental, because I'm not sure how much embellishment Red #11 added to the situation in an effort to get an Academy Award nomination.

JRutledge Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1040784)
Would anyone have gone with a no-call here? That was my initial gut feeling. Certainly not a block, but I donít think thereís clear advantage gained by the ball handler. Iím seeing more step-back here than leverage.

Corollary: In football, would this be enough for offensive pass interference? Probably not.

I think this was the proper call. For one it caused the ability to get an uncontested shot. So yes I think this needs to be called.

And as a football official, if your push causes that kind of separation, I am calling OPI. The contact was material and gave an advantage to make the play that was attempted. I like the call in either sport.

Peace

Raymond Sun Jan 03, 2021 04:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1040784)
Would anyone have gone with a no-call here? That was my initial gut feeling. Certainly not a block, but I donít think thereís clear advantage gained by the ball handler. Iím seeing more step-back here than leverage.

Corollary: In football, would this be enough for offensive pass interference? Probably not.


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I don't think you can no-call this with that much use of the arm by the offensive player. He initiates the contact by putting his arm up, and then he extends his arm to create separation.

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BillyMac Sun Jan 03, 2021 06:07pm

Extended Arm Bar ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040789)
I don't think you can no-call this with that much use of the arm by the offensive player. He initiates the contact by putting his arm up, and then he extends his arm to create separation.

Good points.

Kansas Ref Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:02am

digest the entire action
 
1. I can see the dribbler's arm raised but is was "within his cylinder" when he came to a pull up motion stopping motion; however, I did not observe any 'extension' of said arm into the torso of defender. Couple these observations with the embellishment/faking of the defender being thrown off balance faking action--in summary I have 'nothing' here. Given the seniority and experience level of the writers on this forum I would hasten to say that all of you have seen this type of play in your officiating history. Play on players!

2. I can understand the chagrin of folks who want to see a PC here, but I have nothing here at the high school level of reffing a game--albeit NCAA and NBA may interps may yield a varying adjudication.

BillyMac Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:16am

That Is The Question (William Shakespeare) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1040791)
... I did not observe any 'extension' of said arm into the torso of defender ...

Look again, fifteen seconds in, and twenty-six seconds in (both are endline views).

He extends his arm bar.

While there definitely is "extension", the question is is there enough "extension" to create an illegal advantage?

Raymond Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1040791)
1. I can see the dribbler's arm raised but is was "within his cylinder" when he came to a pull up motion stopping motion; however, I did not observe any 'extension' of said arm into the torso of defender. Couple these observations with the embellishment/faking of the defender being thrown off balance faking action--in summary I have 'nothing' here. Given the seniority and experience level of the writers on this forum I would hasten to say that all of you have seen this type of play in your officiating history. Play on players!

2. I can understand the chagrin of folks who want to see a PC here, but I have nothing here at the high school level of reffing a game--albeit NCAA and NBA may interps may yield a varying adjudication.

I don't want to see anything. I just look at video and describe what I see. I have an offensive foul in my high school and NCAA games, and have made this call at both levels.

JRutledge Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1040791)
1. I can see the dribbler's arm raised but is was "within his cylinder" when he came to a pull up motion stopping motion; however, I did not observe any 'extension' of said arm into the torso of defender. Couple these observations with the embellishment/faking of the defender being thrown off balance faking action--in summary I have 'nothing' here. Given the seniority and experience level of the writers on this forum I would hasten to say that all of you have seen this type of play in your officiating history. Play on players!

2. I can understand the chagrin of folks who want to see a PC here, but I have nothing here at the high school level of reffing a game--albeit NCAA and NBA may interps may yield a varying adjudication.

I am calling this at every level I work. High school and college.

Peace

LRZ Mon Jan 04, 2021 05:26pm

I am calling this at every level I work. High school and below.


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