Intentional Foul
 

Had an intentional foul in a game last night, and the coach questioned me on why he doesn't get to choose the shooter. I told him because it is a contact foul on a player, so that player shoots. He understood, but asked if I would send him the rule reference, and I cannot find the rule that covers who shoots for the life of me in the book.

Any chance someone has dealt with this recently and has it handily?

Tell him, "The rule only allows the shooter to be the offended player. This is not college, this is high school."

Keep it simple.

Peace

The coach doesn’t get to choose the shooter in men’s college, either.

There is no intentional foul in college. And there is a situation where they can if there is an injury and a flagrant foul being called. So that is where they get that from, just like coaches think the ball hitting the backboard first means you have a goaltending violation. There is a little more nuance to the rule and some specifics that most do not understand. I just tell a coach that they are trying to have us enforce a college rule and leave it at that. Usually, that ends the conversation or they do not have enough knowledge to continue to win that argument.

And for clarity purposes I added this.

In NCAA Men's rules, if a player is injured, the opposing head coach can choose amongst the 4 players left on the court to shoot the free throws.

If the injury is when there is a flagrant foul, the player's head coach can choose any player or team member to shoot the free throws.

If the player that is injured is bleeding, then the head coach of that player can decide to put in the substitute to shoot the free throws.

All stated under Rule 8-3.3. I am not going into that kind of detail with a high school coach that thinks he has the same privileges.

Peace

Matthew 7:7 ...
 

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

8-2: The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul must be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute must attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by the team captain or head coach.

8-3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or designated starter. The coach or captain must designate the free thrower(s).

Was it an intentional PERSONAL foul or an intentional TECHNICAL foul?

That should help you.

It's Alive ...
 

Good point.

I assumed that swkansasref33 meant intentional personal, but we all know what happens when one assumes.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.4...=0&w=248&h=181

The "contact" he mentions could have been personal, or technical; depending on the whether it was a live ball, or a dead ball foul.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.4...=0&w=223&h=166

NCAA Women any player on the team may shoot the free throws for an intentional foul.

There was no injury or blood in the OP so your point is moot. Intentional fouls and F1 fouls are enforced exactly the same way. Bringing “college rules” into this discussion with the coach serves no purpose.

It’s okay to admit you were wrong.

Federation Rules ...
 

If the coach brings up a college rule, just state "The HIGH SCHOOL rule states ...".

I wish I got a dollar every time a coach confused a college rule (or a rule from another sport) with a high school rule over the past forty years.

Maybe then I could afford to buy that villa in Tuscany I've been wanting to retire to?

Intentional Foul ...
 

Usually when one gets this question, they just think that any free throws shot with the lane spaces cleared entitle them to choose the shooter. That’s because about 80% of the time one sees this, it stemmed from a technical foul.

Or maybe JRut was right, and the coach was (incorrectly, mind you) applying an NCAA rule in his head. This is an example where, while certainly an NFHS official is not required to know NCAA rules, it doesn’t hurt to at least have a working knowledge of some of the key differences. Because JRut is right, they watch games on ESPN and then expect to see the same rules adjudicated in their games. If I had a dime for every time a HS coach wanted BI for slapping the backboard while the ball was in the cylinder....


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Actually, they are not exactly the same. They are in principle but as stated when a player is injured there is a different application. It is OK that you did not know the difference, not my issue to make. You did not ask the question. Because chances are the coach is asking a question from a higher level and does not know the difference. I am just fine with my position until clarified by the OPer who might tell us that there was a technical foul, which clearly the coach of his own team can pick the shooter or he thinks because an intentional foul is called he has some say (which he doesn't).

I'm good with my answer and Bob made a good point it does matter if it is an Intentional Technical foul which was not my thought process because a different shooter can be than the offended player (if there is one).

You can admit you are making this harder than it has to be. Not trying to be right, trying to explain what my answer would be to move on from that conversation. Worked all these years in multiple sports BTW.

You can tell a coach whatever the hell you wish to tell them when you are talking to them. We are not the same people and not the same experience. I know there are things I say you could never get away with when dealing with the right coach. So I will say what works for me and you can state what works for you. ;)

Peace

High school coaches invoke college and NBA Rules all the time when arguing plays and rules. It happens all the time in football because there are so many subtle differences which really confuses coaches. At least in basketball, it happens multiple times a year and I have had coaches insist they were right and take you to task on that issue. The backcourt rule (I wish I just had a penny for this one), the slapping the backboard (counting the basket), using "Flagrant 1" in place of Intentional Fouls, and the traveling rule (NBA language). They bring up all this stuff that I know right off the bat is what they saw or heard some commentator say on TV.

Maybe we will get clarification from the OPer what the coach was trying to say or give more information about what the conversation all about but this to me is a classic college rule confusion. I have had coaches say the same thing to me. ;)

Peace

The player in the OP wasn’t injured.

But we all know it makes you feel better to deflect rather than just ignore or admit you were wrong, so this is par for the course for you.

Let's not make these discussions--or disagreements--personal.

JRut for President! [emoji6]


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Next Door Neighbors ...
 

Good point crosscountry55, looking at it from a coach's perspective.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.f...=0&w=300&h=300

You realize I was answering the question to let the OPer to understand that the coach was asking for a college rule that had a very specific situation result? We know you do not know that. I am very aware there was no injured player stated and that was not the point and did not care either. If that bothers you, keep it moving. It was not for you.

Stop trying to control every conversation.

Peace

And another example of where this coach thinks he can choose who shoots the FTs on certain kinds of fouls. Part of being a good official IMO is being aware of rules from multiple levels. You do not need not all of them, but know there are things going to be brought up to you that do not apply to the level most of us work, which is high school. In my 25 years and 4 sports during that time, I would get addressed based on rules that do not apply to the level you are working.

Peace

Awareness ...
 

Agree. Enough to be aware, but not enough to confuse one.

One of the reasons why I publish my list of Misunderstood Rules (no major changes this year).

Knowing these rule misconceptions in advance can help basketball officials understand where players, coaches, parents, and fans, are “coming from”. Rookie basketball officials can benefit from this article by clearing up any misconceptions that they might have had coming into basketball officiating after years of being a player, or a fan.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1035693

And for the record that list is great. I have used it in variation over the years. Often we have to deal with misconceptions as much as real rules and those misconceptions come from other levels of basketball or part of other levels of basketball. I often with coaches unpack the myths of their misconceptions which come from other levels. It is not new. And the NCAA took many little rules that were the same as the NF and change them which caused more confusion lately. I will never stop talking to coaches and addressing these misconceptions. As I as often they do not know what you are talking about and leave it alone because you sound more knowledgeable than they are on the subject as well, which you should be.

I just will never understand people on this site that think these are linear conversations.

Peace

I tell them this and its worked great over the years.

Kids watch the NBA and college games dreaming of big time.

There are major and minor differences in the rule sets.

In HS we do it this way.

They get the hint they are trying to apply a different rule set and leave us alone. Its awesome.

Rule Number 126 ???
 

Here's my forty-year old secret.

When coaches question one's rule interpretation in any way, just quote the rule number. I'm not talking about sections and articles, or the words, just the rule number.

One only has to know a few: Rule 9 Violations, Rule 10 Fouls, Rule 7 Out of Bounds and Throwin, Rule 8 Free Throws, and of course, the "Duct Tape" of the rulebook, Rule 4 Definitions.

(If one isn't sure, just say Rule 4, "Coach, that's a proper adjudication of Rule 4".)

Most coaches think that there are hundreds of rules, so they'll be impressed that one can quote Rule number 4 the same manner as one could quote Rule number 126.

They'll scratch their head and seem dumbfounded and during that momentary lapse in arguing one can be all the way over on the other side of the gym.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.c...=0&w=300&h=300

Been There, Done That, Lots Of Times ...
 

Kind of like how every single one of us knows what to expect when a player intentionally slaps a backboard during a try so forcefully that it cannot be ignored because it's an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration; and then the ball falls off the ring and doesn't enter the basket as the backboard is still vibrating.

Even after we charge the technical foul, we all are prepared for the fact that it won't end there, we're still going to have to deal with a confused, ignorant, irate coach.

Thanks for the spirited discussion all!

Sorry for going AWOL, I posted this, and then tested positive for COVID later that day (luckily, fairly asymptomatic), and am just getting back into the swing of things!

It was an intentional personal foul (player reached out and grabbed a cutter with both hands and partner ruled it intentional).

With that being said.... can anyone give an example of a personal technical foul? I can't think of what that might entail, and couldn't find an example in the case book.

12 days--that's how long my symptoms hung around.

There are no personal technical fouls. Do you mean Intentional Technical Foul?

No Such Animal ...
 

No such thing. By rule, they are 100% mutually exclusive.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/6a...189784739e.png

4-19-1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

4-19-5: A technical foul is:
a. A foul by a non-player.
b. A non-contact foul by a player.
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter

Personal: Player and contact and live ball (must have all three).
Technical: Any non-player, or any non-contact, or player dead ball intentional/flagrant (only) contact.

Intentional Foul
 

The red part is the key. ITF means the ball was dead. So let’s say there’d been a common foul away from the ball half a second before, and then for good measure the player challenging the cutter decided to grab her as you described anyway. That would be an ITF because the ball was dead at that point. That matters for a) DQ purposes, b) who can shoot the free throws (anyone), and c) where you administer the throw-in.


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All fouls are either Personal or Technical, they cannot be both. And only Technical fouls in the NF code can result in the offended coach choosing the shooter. Not the case with any Personal foul (Intentional or Flagrant). Only in a situation where a player is either injured or disqualied does the sub shoot there FT.

I guess the best way to say this, if you have a flagrant personal foul, then only the player fouled can shoot. But if you have a flagrant technical, anyone can shoot that is eligible (like an unsporting act or act during a dead ball)

Peace

Words Matter ...
 

Good points.

Meant to say "Intentional Technical Foul" insead...

Intentional Technical Foul ...
 

How about an intentional contact foul while the ball is dead?

4-19-3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to:
b. Contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play.
c. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball/player ...
d. Excessive contact with an opponent ...

4-19-5: A technical foul is:
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead, except a foul by an airborne shooter.