First off, sorry for the long post.
In the 20 years since I played basketball in HS and the time I am now picking it up in officiating, there has been a number of big time rule changes. 3 point shot, block charge on players with a foot on the OOB (was a big teaching point by my coaches to do that in HS), the limited number of players allowed along the free throw lane during a foul shot), here is one I am confused about, closely guarded violation. I have seen official counting it in collage games but never got into what exactly and why they were doing it.

I am reading this that if a defender is within 6 feet of the Offensive player with the ball, the offensive player has 5 seconds to get rid of the ball.
But I also read it that if the offensive player is dribbling the ball and stops dribbling, the 5 second count stops and a new one starts, meaning he now has 5 more seconds to pass the ball (or shoot). Am I interpeting this correctly?
Also if a defender is 6 feet from the player do you not overly concern yourselves with the count? In other words, does the defender have to make a more serious attempt to play defense say from 2, 3, or 4 feet away as opposed to 6?
For example defense is in a 2-3 zone with the guards on the foul line and the point guard dribbles to just off the top of the key. The defensive guards make no attempt to move towards the ball handler. They are obviously within 6 feet of one another, do you start your count?
What if the ball handler backs away and is now 7 or 8 feet away, do you stop the count if the defense does on follow?

thanks.

Yes. A closely-guarded player could hold for 4.99999 seconds, dribble for 4.99999 seconds and hold again for 4.99999 seconds w/out committing a violation

Quote:

Also if a defender is 6 feet from the player do you not overly concern yourselves with the count? In other words, does the defender have to make a more serious attempt to play defense say from 2, 3, or 4 feet away as opposed to 6? For example defense is in a 2-3 zone with the guards on the foul line and the point guard dribbles to just off the top of the key. The defensive guards make no attempt to move towards the ball handler. They are obviously within 6 feet of one another, do you start your count?

Ignoring your math ;) (if the dribbler is at the top of the key, a defender on the FT line would need to be at the center of the FT line to be within 6 feet), as a practical matter, count when there's actual guarding.

Quote:

What if the ball handler backs away and is now 7 or 8 feet away, do you stop the count if the defense does on follow? thanks.

Yes -- as soon as the 6' distance is exceeded, stop the count.

More on closely guarding
 

The defender must be guarding the person with the ball. This means that if another offensive player sets a screen and the defender moves behind the screen, he may stay within 6 feet, but it would be impossible to be guarding one person through another, so the count would stop and restart as soon as he re-establishes the guarding position.

Another thing to consider is that the defensive team must be closely guarding the person with the ball. I have never called it, but have seen it called. In a zone defense, a person with the ball may be closeley guarded by one person, a second person may start guarding person the ball before the first releases him as he moves through the zone. If this occurs, you stay on the count without restarting it.

Best of luck to you.

Even on a person to person defense, if the switching is good and the next defender is within the 6 feet allowance, the 5 seconds continues. Just so there is no confusion that it has to be a zone in order for the closely guarded to continue.

Frontcourt Closely-guarded Action

"9.10.1 Situation C: Team A has the ball in its own frontcourt. B1 stands within 6 feet and facing A1 while A1 is holding the ball near the division line. Ruling: In five seconds this would be a violation. In the situation outlined, as soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position, both feet on the floor, facing the opponent, no other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual body position of the player is irrelevant."

What if B1 is closely guarded by A1, and A2 comes up and double teams B1, but A1 backs off. Would the count continue if the defenders change?

Yes. This is just what OldCoachNewRef said about 3 posts ago. See 9.10.1B

Frontcourt Closely-Guarded Action
"9.10.1 Situation B: While dribbling in A's frontcourt, A1 is closely guarded by B1. After two seconds, B2 also assumes a closely-guarded position on A1, and B1 leaves to guard A2. Ruling: There is no requirement for the defensive player to remain the same during the count as long as A1 is closely-guarded throughout."

Soory bout that....

Re: More on closely guarding
 

That's the first I've ever heard that. Just becuase a screener passes between the guard and the dribbler doesn't mean that LGP is lost. There is even a related case book play that explicitly say that the count can continue when there are screening teammates between the guard and the ball handler (quoted below). The count continues through screens.

For that matter, LGP is NOT required for a closely guarded count. LGP is only necessary in determinine who a foul is on if there is contact.

9.10.1 SITUATION D: Team A, while in possession of the ball in its frontcourt: (a) positions four players parallel with the sideline and they pass the ball from one to another with their arms reaching beyond the sideline plane; or (b) has four teammates surround dribbler A1. In both (a) and (b), the opponents are unable to get close to the ball. Ruling: This is considered to be a closely-guarded situation and a violation in five seconds in both (a) and (b), if any B player is within 6 feet of the ball or within 6 feet of the screening teammates and is attempting to gain control of the ball. Preventing opponents from getting to the ball by using screening teammates becomes a violation in five seconds if the opponents are attempting to gain control.

Just to throw another thought out on this rule. The rule has been modified in NCAA women's rules this year.

Rule 9-13 art. 1 b (2) -- A player in control of the ball, but not dribbling, is closely guarded when an opponet is in a guarding stance within 3 feet. A closely guarded violation shall occur when the player in control of the ball holds the ball for more than five seconds.

The rule for women for the past several years only includes a player that is holding the ball (no 5 second count when dribbling). The changes this year include the space requirement going down to 3 feet instead of 6, and the wording "guarding stance" describing the defender. Thus the defender must be actively guarding the ball holder.

One more reminder about this rule difference in womens, mens and NF -- you can have a 5 second count in the backcourt in women's ball -- not men's or NF.

You can have a 5 second count in womens NCAA because they dont have the 10 second call ( personally a stupid rule)

I just want to know how Bob counts to 4.99999 before he calls a violation. You got some precision timing thing I dont know about. I am luck I can count -- They invented the 10 second count for me. If it were any longer I would have to take my shoes off in the middle of the game!

My suggestion as a newer official. Learn to make a very visible, strong 5 second signal and be consistent. Know when it starts and start it. Dont let the coaches cajole or whine you into starting it

Change hands when you switch from the hold to dribble to hold.

See the Iraqi sun has not fried my brain too bad.
BTW our record 92 days of 100 plus temps ( hit 150 out thermometers could not go any higher) with at least 106 out of 109 day above 100...

Damn give me a heated contest between the two hottest cross town rivals in a packed Rupp arena over this!

Well, duhuhuh!!

Be well, Kelvin.

Stay safe, keep your spirits up, your head in the game and don't take any chances. The year will be up before you know it and you'll be back home with your best gal on your arm & a cool one in your hand! :)

Actually, I don't see any reason keeping the 10 second count as long as there's a shot clock. The point of the 10 second count is to propel the action forward, which is what the shot clock does as well.

Of course, the best thing about not having a 10 second count in the women's game is to give the fans something to yell about when the shot clock gets down to 19. :-)

Hang in there, Kelvin. I don't think I'm stepping on any toes when I say that all of us deeply appreciate your commitment and sacrifice and fervently hope for your quick and safe return.

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You can have the 5 second count anywhere on the court in NCAA women's, including the b/c. However, it is a different rule than NFHS, in that it only applies to a player who is holding the ball, and the defensive player must be within 3 ft. Also, in NCAA men's and women's, the closely guarded rule specifically mentions a "guarding stance." So you wouldn't call closely guarded in a situation where the defender is merely standing within the 6 ft (men) or 3 ft (women) and facig the player with the ball.

RULE 9-12/VIOLATIONS AND PENALTIES
Section 13. Closely Guarded
(2) (Women) A player in control of the ball, but not dribbling, is closely guarded when an opponent is in a guarding stance within 3 feet. A closely guarded violation shall occur when the player in control of the ball holds the ball for more than five seconds.

I don't agree with your interpretation on this Mick
 

I remember your reference to the post in the case book about screening teammates.

9.10.1 Sit D refers to more than one teammate keeping an opponent from guarding the person with the ball. In that case a defender within 6 feet of the player with the ball is considered closely guarding that person.

My post was referring to a simple screen and the opponent moves behind the screen to go around it. In that case, there is a brief moment when the defender could be considered guarding the screener and not the person with the ball. The way I have been trained is that will stop the count and it is restarted when the defender emerges from the screen and is back on the ball.

I can see it both ways, so this should provide some interesting discussion.

Damian
I can't see how you could make this blanket judgment. It often is not this way.

We play man and we try to never switch (obviously it can't always be helped). When we have A1 dribbling, our B1 defending, A2 screening and B2 defending screener, we want B1 to get under the screen and prevent A1 from getting a direct line to the basket. B2 is supposed to "hedge" or step out from the screner to slow or change the direction of A1 to allow B1 to prevent the penetration. At no time does B1 slow to "guard" A2. B1 is trying at all times to maintain good defensive position on A1 despite A2 being between B1 and the ball.

B2 stepping out would maintain the closely guarded count anyway, but if B2 fails to step out and B1 remains within the 6 ft, B1 is never guarding A2. B1 is just trying to avoid A2. There is no rule that says you are guarding the player closest to you. I think if you are observing the defense, you will know who they are guarding and whether or not you should maintain the count.

Re: I don't agree with your interpretation on this Mick
 

There is also no requirement that a defender be guarding only one opponent. Even if you consider the defender to be guarding the screener, they can still be guarding the dribbler.

If, however, the defender gets stopped by the screen and the dribbler continues away and the defender hustles to catch up and regain a guarding position, that would be a case for restarting the count.

agreed on the second point Cameron. If stopped by the screen, a defender is no longer in a guarding position in all likelihood, kind of like stopping the count if an offensive player has driven by a defender. Just staying within 6 ft is not the only requirement.

Just FYI, it's a convention to refer to the offensive team as "A" and the defensive team as "B" - helps us keep things straight.