College 28 Foot Hash Mark ...
 

I watched an IAABO Zoom presentation tonight, featuring a college official regarding college mechanics and positioning that included many references to the 28 foot hash mark which is actually painted inbounds on the college court.

Why is there a 28 foot hash mark painted inbounds on the college court?

NFHS did away with all rules (delay of game, five second closely guarded, etc.) needing the 28 foot hash mark painted inbounds on the high school court many, many years ago.

I realize the need for a coaching box 28 foot hash mark painted out of bounds on the college (or a high school) court.

My question is about the 28 foot hash mark painted inbounds on the college court.

I have wondered this myself at times.

While we’re on the subject, why are base coaching boxes still painted on baseball diamonds? No one ever actually stands in them.


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They don’t stand in them on a basketball court either.


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The 28-foot marks (there’s supposed to be a small tickmark opposite table, also) are two of the four throw-in spots for all frontcourt throw-ins (except OOB) in NCAA-M.

They do in my games.

There is no reason given in the rules, but it is on the diagram for required markings.

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I *think* it was put there so officials could more easily see when the coach was beyond the (old) coaching box -- and today, maybe, so officials can more easily see when others are beyond the bench area.

Isn't the coaching box supposed to be within the 28-foot mark and the end line if used?

Peace

NCAAW (and I thought NCAAM, but I don't know) expanded the coaching box (but not he bench area) to 38' a few years ago. There's a separate line on the floor for that.

Citation Please ...
 

One reply that states that there are such NCAA rules, another reply that says that there aren't such NCAA rules.

SC Official: Can you please cite the NCAA rule?

I've found NCAA basketball court diagrams online that only show these inbound hash marks only on the table side. If they are used as four different throwin spots, shouldn't they be on both sides of the court?

And if they're throwin spots, shouldn't they be out of bounds?

Young'uns: Back in ancient times, these four hash marks had a real purpose in high school games.

One was regarding a five second closely guarded count. If a dribbler was close to a five second closely guarded dribbling count violation he could get a new count by dribbling forward past the 28 foot hash mark extended. Under certain conditions, between holding and dribbling a ball handler could avoid a closely guarded violation for up to sixteen seconds (unlike today's twelve seconds).

Another was for delay of game. Under certain conditions, stalling offensive teams were required to move the ball past the 28 foot hash mark extended, and stalling defensive teams were required to come out and play defense (closely guarded) past the 28 foot hash mark extended.

There's a lot more to the ancient times delay of game rule. I'm sure that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will be moseying by shortly to give us all the details.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d6f179c190.jpg

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. is #5, he's not the fastest moseyer in the West. But isn't that the point of moseying? He may actually be "winning" the race.

Yes, but I was not talking about the NF Rule. I thought he was asking is why there is a 28-foot mark for high school.

Peace

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/cha...urtDiagram.pdf

This is the most recent NCAA court diagram. You can see that there is a smaller 28-foot tickmark opposite table. You can also see the two tickmarks on the endline. Those three marks along with the "big" 28-foot line tableside are the four throw-in spots for all frontcourt throw-ins except those after OOB violations.

I don't have time to scour the book but if you want to read more about the lines of demarcation and the throw-in spots you can look in Rule 7.

Vestigial Hash Marks ...
 

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, I occasionally see some 28 foot hash marks inbounds on high school courts, often on middle school courts.

The Lower Defensive Box ...
 

So these endline tickmarks have a throwin purpose? I thought they were for the Lower Defensive Box used in NCAA women's rules.

The Lower Defensive Box also referred to as the LDB is an imaginary box on the floor that uses four marks the two tick marks on the endline and both second Lane space marks on the free-throw Lane as reference points this box is used to determine a player control or blocking foul on a secondary defender located in the restricted area when a player with the ball starts her move from within the LDB there is no restricted area otherwise when a player with the ball starts her move from outside the LDB the restricted area rule is still in effect.

Consistent Throwin Spots ...
 

Thanks SC Official.

2017-18 NCAA Rule Changes: Fans will notice that throw-in spots will occur from more consistent spots in the frontcourt when the offensive team retains possession after a nonshooting foul or other stoppages in the game.

The location of all throw-ins in the frontcourt will be determined by an imaginary line drawn from the corner of the court to the intersection of the lane line and the free-throw line. If the stoppage of play is inside this area, the throw-in will occur on the end line 3 feet outside the lane line.

If the stoppage occurs outside this area, the throw-in will be at the nearer sideline at the 28-foot mark. Deflections will continue to be put back in play at the nearest out-of-bounds spot. Throw-ins in the back court will continue to be at the nearest spot.

They are for the women's LDB and when the new rule came out they told us to use those marks as a guide for the endline demarcation throw-ins. I actually don't know if men's "requires" those tickmarks but those are the marks we are told to use. And since almost all college floors are used for men's and women's games that wasn't a problem.

And I believe NCAA-W has since adopted the men's rule about lines of demarcation and throw-in spots.

Rocket Ship Diagram © 2009, Back In The Saddle ...
 

Does the NCAA also use the Rocket Ship Diagram to decide endline or sideline (ignore the extra NFHS arrows and add some NCAA hash marks)?

The Rocket Ship Diagram © 2009, Back In The Saddle

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7137/7...40b397d7_m.jpg

Note: It sure feels great to post about basketball rules on the Forum instead of posting on social justice issues, or the coronavirus. I sure hope that we have high school basketball this upcoming season here in Connecticut. The only indoor fall sport in Connecticut is girls volleyball and the CIAC and the State Department of Health is requiring that volleyball players wear masks at all times, even when playing. Could the same mask rules apply to basketball in the winter?

Meanwhile, some school systems/schools/grades/classrooms in Connecticut have had to temporarily close (moving to online learning) due to COVID cases. If COVID has this effect on curricular activities, what effect will we see on extracurricular activities, especially when people start moving back indoors as the weather gets colder?

Semicircle goes to the sideline. Other than that, yes - that is what I mean by "lines of demarcation."

For The Good Of The Cause ...
 

First, I just wanted to let everyone know that all of the information I am providing is for NCAA-W.

The 28-foot mark is there as a guideline for the bench area when a timeout is granted. This area is from the 28-foot line to end line and goes from the chair area to first lane line closest to the teams bench. As for the tick marks opposite of the 28-foot mark those are used for the opition to advance when the offense calls a timeout under 59.9. Also, it serves a dual purpopse for a throw when there is a kick ball by the defense and a single foul by the defense in which the offense has a throw in.

The LDB, Lower Defensive Box, tick marks are used for the kick/fisted ball by the defense and a single foul committed by the defense.

All throw-ins will occur at one of the four spots, 28-foot mark, 28-foot mark opposotie of the bench, two LDB tick mraks, closes to where the said violation or foul took place. The use of the diagram that was in place regarding throw-ins still is used. These spots are just where they take place.

I hope this information helps.

Take The Copyright Money And Run ...
 

Whatever happened to Back In The Saddle?

(5,289 posts, most recent April 22, 2012)

I ask because he may be one of the handful of Forum posters that have changed their usernames over the years.

The 28 foot marks are used in Men's basketball for throw-in spots on the sideline for all throw-ins except out of bounds violations (goes to the spot of the violation in that case). And the tick marks on the endline are used for marking of the "post area" where some contact can be different than outside the area. So both markings have a purpose in the NCAA Men's side.

Peace

Enquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 

Sure does. Thanks JBleach85.

Not in NCAAW -- it goes to the endline. 7-3-2c

You're welcome BillyMac

Men Men Men (Monty Python) ...
 

They want it now, they want it where, they want it when?

Thanks JRutledge.

Single Rule Set ...
 

Why can't the NCAA men and the NCAA women get together and use a single rule set, and just change the size of the basketball?

This works just fine for NFHS boys and girls high school rules.

Every Time I Call This The Rocket Ship Diagram ...
 

... the Forum pays Back In The Saddle a dollar.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7137/7...40b397d7_m.jpg

The Rocket Ship Diagram © 2009, Back In The Saddle

Coaches.

One makes over a billion on their NCAA Tournament and the other loses money.

And the people that officiate are not the same. So there you go.

Peace

Man Of Few Words ...
 

Were there two rule sets for high school boys and girls before they came under the umbrella of the NFHS (with the same size ball for many years).

I think I remember that back when I was in high school the girls played six on six basketball in a back auxiliary gym (with no bleachers for fans, just a few folding chairs along the perimeter walls) called the "Girls Gym" (yes that's what it was called, of course, this was before Title IX).

I'm sure that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will be moseying by shortly to give us all the ancient times details.

I worked with young partner this past season and was telling him a story about a girl's ball being mistakenly used in a boys game back when the size was first changed and he replied, "They once used the same size ball?".

Am I really that old?

The 28 foot marks define the boundaries of the benches and serve as throw-in locations for fouls and violations committed above the free throw line and outside the diagonal lines from the upper edges of the lane to the corners.

Already been addressed.

I have no idea. All I know is that the NCAA men's and women's coaches who write the rules have no reason or incentive to care what the other side does. And since college officials almost never cross between the two that isn't something they have to worry about, either.

Interestingly I believe the other NCAA sports do use the same rules for men and women (except lacrosse because M/W lacrosse are two almost entirely different games).

Hockey is different as well.

Again one sport makes over a billion dollars and the other loses money. And football makes more money than both of them. Just a fact.

Peace

Sexist Post ...
 

From the little that I've observed, boys high school lacrosse is an exciting, physical, contact sport; girls high school lacrosse is a whistle-filled, dainty, delicate, boring, non-contact sport.

Yeah, I said that out loud.

Two Almost Entirely Different Games ...
 

And I believe that both sports (lacrosse and ice hockey) have different rule sets for boys and girls on the high school level as well.

Even with different rule sets, different jumping abilities of the players, and different size balls, NCAA women's basketball and NCAA men's basketball are recognizable as being the same game.

At least to some visitors from Mars who never observed any basketball games played at any level.

They are not officiated the same, even at the high school level. So not sure I agree.

Peace

I'm no official, but I'm an old timer, and can tell you that those girls' basketball rules were kept by NAGWS. Iowa's was the last state association to use them interscholastically. At one time there were 3 zones on the court, but later they liberalized them to 2.

Before NCAA administered women's basketball, intercollegiate women's basketball was administered by the AIAW, who also had their own playing rules.

As to the other rules relating to those marks on the court you were probably expecting Mark DeNucci to mosey along for, I believe you were referring to the provisions on "lack of sufficient action". They depended on the score of the game at the time. The team that was behind in score, believe it or not, was responsible for "action"; if the score was tied, it was (again, believe it or not) the team without the ball that was responsible. Seems like these provisions were there to magnify an advantage.

When the team with responsibility for action had the ball in the front court, it was a violation for their players alone or in combination to hold the ball in the midcourt area defined by those marks for 5 seconds at a time, after a once-a-game warning. When the opponents of he team with responsibility for action had the ball in that midcourt area, after a similar warning, the team with responsibility had to not leave him not closely guarded for 5 seconds at a time. If those opponents also had another player in the midcourt area, the team with responsibility had to put one other player in the midcourt area when the ball was there. Additional players by the team without responsibility did not incur any additional requirement of defenders to come into that area.

Apple Cider Season ...
 

Agree, but it's still the same basic game.

Not apples and oranges, but Red Delicious Apples and Granny Smith Apples.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.9...=0&w=300&h=300

Ancient Times ...
 

Why is Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. posting under Robert Goodman's username?

How about an ancient times lesson on "change of status"? That will knock the socks off of the young'uns.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.0...=0&w=254&h=170

I'll classify this as a rhetorical question because nobody here will be able to answer definitively.

NCAA Women's rules are actually a lot closer to NBA rules then NCAA Men's rules are.


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VB is also different.

Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus ...
 

https://tse3.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=300&h=300

Different like apples and oranges, or different like McIntosh Apples and Honeycrisp Apples?

Would visitors from Mars who never previously observed any volleyball games notice the differences right away (as I, not knowing any of the rules, or not knowing anything else about the sport, noticed right away after observing boys and girls high school lacrosse games), or are the differences only minor?

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.V...=0&w=259&h=165

This is when you start losing the audience and anybody who may have some good information doesn't bother reading the rest of the thread.

Agreed!!!
 

That works on FB or Instagram much more than a place like this.

Peace

Apples And Oranges ...
 

I view men's and women's college basketball as two different varieties of apples. Basically the same game, shoot the ball in the basket, with only slightly different rules. Non-officials casually watching both games would recognize them as being played in very similar manners.

I view boys and girls high school lacrosse as being apples and oranges. They're both fruit, but very different types of fruit. Non-officials casually watching both games would recognize them as being played in very different manners. Same basic game, get the ball in the net, but very much different rules.

Hey, it's better than posting about COVID and social justice issues on a forum dedicated to basketball officiating.

You just can't stop yourself, can you? And we are your enablers.

Partners In Crime ...
 

SC Official deserves a small part of the blame.

He first brought up sports other than basketball with different gender rule sets, in some cases making for "two almost entirely different games".

It was his quoted phrase that got my attention.

http://inlandpolitics.com/blog/wp-co...er-the-bus.jpg

Keep The Metaphor Going ...
 

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.y...=0&w=300&h=300

You're right LRZ. I couldn't resist. Came up with the idea to fully continue through with the metaphor (not perfect, both edible plants, but it serves a purpose) yesterday, tried to resist posting it all day yesterday. Woke up and had to post it today. Sorry.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.l...=0&w=442&h=125

Above, my view on soccer versus softball.

Can't blame this, even partially, on SC Official. It's all on me.

BillyMac out (hopefully).

At one point, NCAA-M and W did share a common rule book through the late 1990s and early 2000s with differences for men and women noted as appropriate. I'm not sure what year it was when the men's and women's rules diverged into separate rule books to reflect the different trends, philosophies, strategies, etc. when comparing the men's game with the women's.

Divergence ...
 

Thanks Stat-Man.

Be sure to eat lots of fruits and vegetables.

By the way, that was USA-Canada (AAU-NCAA) rules.

Ahh, the old forecourt and front court. The good old days.

New Math ...
 

Forecourt + Midcourt = Frontcourt.

Speaking of the "good old days", let's not forget about "change of status".

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.G...=0&w=213&h=161

Get Smart ...
 

SMH. :rolleyes:

Old Trick ???
 

Hey, it was for the young'uns.

It never stops does it?

Peace

It's barely tolerable when you post off topic stuff within a semi-relevant post.

In this case, you responded to the same post for a second time with a post that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic--shoot it didn't even have anything to do with sports.



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Many of us are older than you think. I am in my late 40s and if you have to post something that only someone much younger would know, then you are not doing a good job explaining. Man, when is it going to stop?

Peace

Secret Agent 86 ...
 

While true, I'm wasn't sure that many younger Forum members would "get" Mregor's Get Smart reference to, "Ahh, the old ...", without some "boomer splaining".

However, I did initially forget about the 2008 Get Smart movie with Steve Carell and Anne Hathaway that included Maxwell Smart's "The old "Call Forwarding From the Shoe phone to the Cell phone so you don't know Where I am and then I appear on the Roof behind you and Surprise everyone" trick".

Many long-lived, funny, catch phrases came out of the original television show, unfortunately probably not long-lived enough to survive the eventual demise of the boomers, but reruns could possibly keep these catch phrases alive for continued enjoyment by additional generations.

Why don't you stop before posting and think if your words really advance the discussion? Many of your posts, especially the ones with graphics, puerile and inane; they are simply not amusing.

Off-Season ...
 

During these off-season times, I would love to post about basketball officiating, but there was little need, especially with off-season AAU seemingly being curtailed, probably due to COVID.

Even though I have often participated, I'm getting tired and worn down posting about COVID and social justice because these topics can be construed as political, and I normally don't "do" political online (other than the Forum, I really have no social media presence, i.e., no Facebook, no Twitter etc.), unless I'm pushed into it by a need for a "science" guy, or by things I've learned participating in my church's Prison Ministry (and my research/reading for such).

My slightly, or not so slightly, off-topic posts (often responding to another member's post) are distractions for me instead of posting about COVID and social justice, with their often inherently negative "vibs".

During these COVID "plague" times, many of us could use some occasional "lighter" distractions.

As basketball season approaches (hopefully) my posts will definitely be more on basketball officiating topics.

I have three days with four sessions of the IAABO Virtual Fall Seminar (was supposed to be in Connecticut this year) later this week, and I pick up my 2020-21 NFHS Rulebook and IAABO Mechanics Manual next week.

Maybe then I'll have something much more worthwhile to share.

Younger people are not clamoring for these references. And if you have to keep explaining them with a post that has nothing to do with the post, then use better references. The recent movie is 12 years ago. I do not even remember the movie and did not see it. It has nothing to do with today or the topic. Stop it already!!!! I know I am older and I make references about old things on purpose, but I do that to get my wife's attention because she knows what I am talking about. I am not trying to reach some 20-year old or my son in the conversation. The average age of officials where I live in in their 50s right now.

If I am talking to a group of people that are much younger than me, I make references to things they would know. It is not helping and we keep saying this to you and you give some lame reason for why we should tolerate it. And it might not be so annoyng if it was not often a constant back and forth with yourself.

Peace

OK Boomer ...
 

Agree, not clamoring, but a few may be somewhat curious.

Mregor, not me, made the original "things young'uns may not know" (Get Smart) reference, I was just "boomer splaining" the reference.

Wait? Did Mregor, knowing my weaknesses, set me up?

Is this all just a big conspiracy to get BillyMac suspended from the Forum again?

And why am I referring to myself in the third person?

So that's why I hear voices. I'm listening to myself.

If someone was always saying in the post they did not know the refernece that would be one thing. Don't see those posts.

No one trying to suspend you or get you suspended. But I do think this site has fallen and one of the reasons is the things we talk about or do not talk about and these post from you are not helping. Just my opinion. It is not like you are going to do anything about it.

Peace

Dip In The Quantity ...
 

Because one doesn't know what one doesn't know. I can't see a young'un thinking, "Why did Mregor use the phrase "Ahh, the old ...?", and then asking about it. Because I'm old, and watched a lot of television as a kid, I know exactly why he used that phrase.

Just kidding (I hope). But I still think that Mregor, knowing my weaknesses, was trying to set me up.

I noticed a dip in the quantity, but fortunately not the quality, of Forum posts over the past two seasons, well before the COVID "plague". Some high quantity and/or high quality Forum posters seem to have "retired" from the Forum, maybe because they have retired from officiating basketball, or because they have moved up to that great basketball court in the sky.

Also noticed, much to my personal dismay (one college game in forty years), a slight shift more toward college rules and mechanics compared to high school rules and mechanics.

Is this Forum still the best place to get great information about basketball officiating? I haven't looked lately but when I discovered and then later joined this site fifteen years ago that was certainly the case.

Or maybe the Russians, or the Chinese, are manipulating Google searches so that the Forum isn't listed as a top search result when someone, official or non-official, searches a basketball officiating question? Yeah, that's gotta be it.

Even long after I hang up my whistle (let's see how I do wearing both an ankle brace and a knee brace in my middle school games this winter), I still plan to continue my membership on my local board (main reason why I recently volunteered and was selected for a training committee), and to keep posting, and learning, on the Forum.

I will say this and let it go. The game has been that way ever since I played over 30 years ago. When the 3 point line was implemented in high school, the college game did it either the same year or the year before. That has been the same as an official for the last 25 years or so I have been officiating. Just about ever new mechanic or philosophy came from another level. The game does not just change at the NBA or college level, it changes at all levels. Three point shooting is a thing no matter what the level. No one plays a post game like they used to.

Not even close. Too many other forums and outlets of information and right or wrong this type of forum is going by the waist side. This forum has been around since the mid-90s in some form. Not many people do this kind of site at all like once was.


Good and stay engaged, but you will lose people if you always make those kinds of jokes that you have to explain. Just an opinion.

Peace

Water Flows Downhill ...
 

100% agree with you (water flows downhill), but I guess that I didn't do a very good job explaining myself.

I wasn't referring to the game, or the rules, or the mechanics themselves.

What I meant to say was that the Forum website itself has become slightly less high school oriented and slightly more college oriented over the past few years.

While I do have a passing curiosity about college rules and mechanics (see this thread title and my first post), high school blood runs through my officiating veins.

Be safe.

Facebook has a lot of basketball officiating groups now that include a lot more video and also participation by NBA and Division 1 basketball officials. The former men's NCAA Division 1 supervisor participates in one or two of these groups. They have moderators who are less tolerant of off-topic discussions, posts, and replies. At least one of those groups is run by somebody who no longer posts here. I don't participate in that group because he's a d!ck head.

Jeff also has his own group on Facebook, which is almost all completely video driven. People in these different groups are usually expected the answer per their level of officiating or rule set. There is one Facebook group that says they are specifically targeting NFHS rules.





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Eaten Alive ...
 

So your'e saying that The Forum is no longer (maybe never was) the best of the best?

I may have to join Facebook. Really don't want to, already spend way too much time on my computer for basketball, kayaking, backyard chickens, and my prison ministry.

Funny thing is both my son and daughter-in-law teach classes in social media, my son at Syracuse in the Sociology Department, and my daughter-in-law at Hofstra in the Journalism Department.

Both my son and daughter-in-law have advised me to stay away from Facebook because they believe that I'm too polite and that I would get eaten alive.

And always has been one. IJS.

Peace