Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Will Love This ...
 

Early stages, I'm kind of maybe possibly thinking about writing an educational article on jump balls.

I was reviewing the rules and came up with these odd scenarios.

First some rules:

The tossed ball must be touched by one or both of the jumpers after it reaches its highest point. If the ball contacts the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss it again.

To start the game and each extra period, the ball shall be put in play in the center restraining circle by a jump ball between any two opponents.

If play is started or resumed by a jump ball, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.

The ball becomes live when the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand(s).

The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3.

1) Situation: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that player A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

2) Similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

3) Another similar situation, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute non-jumper A6 for non-jumper A5. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table. A5 is not injured nor is A5 bleeding.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.O...=0&w=192&h=190

Don't Be Bashful ...
 

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.f...=0&w=300&h=300

Sixty views and no replies, why is everyone being so bashful?

Here's my take on these situations.

Regarding Situation 1 and Situation 2, since A1 was a "designated" jumper, I don't believe that he can be substituted for, or removed as the jumper, unless he's injured or bleeding.

Note: In these two situations, I'm a little unsteady about the meaning of "designated". During the first jump ball (that one that hit the floor untouched) A1 was "designated" by the coach, not by rule, so does that "coach designation" continue into the second jump ball, or is A1 now the jumper by "rule designation" (as where two nonjumpers simultaneously gain possession of the jump ball at the same time, leading to a held ball (and a jump ball) before the alternating possession arrow has been set)?

Regarding Situation 3, the ball became live on the toss, the game started, even though the clock didn't start. Since players don't have to play "a tick", A6 should be allowed to substitute for A5.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Z...=0&w=300&h=300

At the beginning of the game, I agree. However, if A6 was a player at the end of 4Q and was subbed out during the intermission, he cannot re-enter until after he "sits a tick."

Edit: Just realized Sit 1 specifies "to begin the game" and Sits 2 and 3 say "similar situation." So, you all can ignore this if you want.

Must Sit A Tick, Don’t Have To Play A Tick ...
 

Still a valid point for the good of the cause.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.E...=0&w=316&h=178

For extra credit, under what rare situation does the "Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick" not apply and a substitute is allowed to enter the game without having to sit a tick?

Allow the substitutions in all three scenarios.
The language in the jump ball rule of a designated jumper is left over from prior to the AP arrow becoming part of the game. There is now only one situation in which a player is a designated jumper. You mentioned it in your earlier post—following a jump ball, two players create a held ball prior to player control being gained and the possession arrow being established. Under NFHS rules, those two players must now participate in a jump ball. Note: the NCAA recently changed its ruling on this to allow any two jumpers to conduct such a jump ball.

I’ll also note that your substitution scenarios are no different from a technical foul occurring after the release of the tossed ball, but prior to it being touched. Yep, I’ve actually had this happen in a HS game. So the ball has become live and then dead, yet no time has come off the clock. Subs are certainly permitted at this time. In my situation, we even attempted 2FTs with 8:00 still showing on the clock. Subs could happen before, between, or after those FTs.
Care to guess what occurred to cause the technical foul at that point in the game?

There isn’t one. MTD’s case play ruling is incorrect. Sad that Mary Struckhoff was convinced by it. The team should comply with the substitution rule and temporarily play with four as an older case play ruling states to do when a player has an asthma attack.

Designated By Whom ???
 

Nice to see that I'm not the only Forum member uncomfortable with the word "designated" in the rule: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper.

"Designated" by whom? The coach? The rule? The official?

I'm not quite ready, like Nevadaref, to allow a substitution (or a switched jumper) in the first two situations, but I can probably be easily convinced.

Playing With Five Trumps Sit A Tick ...
 

Sorry Nevadaref, I should have know that this situation "yanks your chain".

But as President Trump stated a few weeks ago, "It is what it is".

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1037607

And Nevadaref still gets the extra credit.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.V...=0&w=282&h=162

Overtime Jump Ball ...
 

Agree that substitutes can come in at these times, but since it's the start of the game, nobody has to sit a tick because nobody came out of the game, and tried to renter.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall
not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been
started properly following his/her replacement.

If your technical foul after the toss situation happened during the jump ball to start an overtime period (as mentioned by Altor), then the "sit a tick" rule may apply.

Or does, the free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute trump the "sit a tick" rule for such an overtime jump ball technical free throw?

For example, the best free throw shooter on team was a player on the court at the end of regulation, but didn't start the overtime period and was not on the floor for the overtime jump ball when the technical foul occurred before the clock started? Does the team's best free throw shooter, who is on the bench, have to sit a tick to attempt the technical foul free throws?

8-3: The free throws awarded because of a technical foul may be attempted by
any player of the offended team, including an eligible substitute or
designated starter. The coach or captain shall designate the free thrower(s).

It Could Happen ...
 

Head coach using an e-cigarette tobacco product?

The sit a tick rule applies. The team member who exited the game at the end of regulation is simply not an eligible substitute at this time.

My answer would be the officials or the rules. Remember this rule predates the AP arrow, so it covered situations in which two opposing players caused a held ball at some point in the game and a jump ball restart was necessitated. The two players involved in the held ball would be designated to jump. The restriction on substitution was put in to prevent a team from subbing out such a player who was short for a tall player from the bench.

Sit A Tick ...
 

Agree.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.i...=0&w=165&h=160

Designated ...
 

Agree (good explanation for the reasoning behind the rule), but the "designated"" wording is still in the rulebook.

3-3-2: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

Is "must" really "must" in my first two situations?

http://img.picturequotes.com/2/40/39...ws-quote-1.jpg

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr., Where Are You ...
 

I'm surprised that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. hasn't chimed in, this thread contains two of his favorite topics, jump balls (nobody loves jump balls more than Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.), and playing with five trumping sitting a tick (Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s favorite casebook play).

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.7...=0&w=216&h=163

Young'uns can look it up on the Google.

With Bated Breath ...
 

C'mon Nevadaref. How long are you going to keep us hanging?

Senior Night: the team had six Seniors and the coach elected to start all six of them and take the team technical foul once the ball became live.

Cheers To Jeers ...
 

Smart coach.

Smart unless it was the last regular season game, the opposing team made both technical foul free throws, his team ended up losing by one point, and because of the loss his team just missed making the state tournament.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.E...=0&w=229&h=173

No can do. Once a player is a jumper, he may not be substituted for unless injured, bleeding, or disqualified. If a technical foul occurs, the formerly designated jumper may be replaced to shoot the free throws, as the jump ball situation has ended.

Jumping Jacks ...
 

Agree.

http://www.ymcafw120.org/wp-content/...smith-team.jpg

No more jump balls.

The jump ball is as outdated as the set shot, short shorts, and chicken wire cages around the perimeter of the court. For generations of players and fans they are a forgettable anachronistic formality. Coaches bemoan inconsistency in officials tossing the ball, and unevenly governed rules about the movement of players during the jump ball (how many officials start the game by incorrectly stating "Don't move" to all the players?), and some officials are weary of policing these microbursts of mayhem.

Start the game by giving the ball to the visiting team and use the alternating possession arrow after that, including the overtime periods. That's why God created the alternating possession arrow on the eighth day.

Also, since I know that he's going to say something, a preemptive "Shut up" to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (pictured in photo above on far left with mustache and receding hairline). This photo must have been taken in November (Movember).

(1) A2 is not an "entering substitute," so 3-3-2 does not apply. Allow the switch or replacement on a non-jumping player for the designated jumper; this is not a substitution for two reasons: A2 is not a substitute, nor is she entering (she was already in the game). "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court." 4-34-3.
(2) Do not allow the substitution. 3-3-2.
(3) Allow the substitution of a non-jumper for another non-jumper.

"Designated jumper" is not defined anywhere in the rule or case books, nor do the rules state that a "designated jumper" cannot be replaced by a player already on the floor; the prohibition in 3-3-2 only bars a substitute for the "designated jumper."

I don't say this is always true, but here, the adage "If it's not illegal, it's legal" seems appropriate.

Not A Substitution ...
 

Great point LRZ.

Designated Jumper ...
 

While it's true that "designated jumper" isn't defined, sometimes it's implied.

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

It may even be implied in my first situation.

Implication ...
 

This (below) is the only reference that I can find regarding "designated jumper". While it's not defined, it's implied that such a "thing" exists (especially when one views the casebook play 6.4.1 SITUATION C), and LRZ is correct that this specific implication only seems to apply to a substitution situation, not to the players already on the court.

3-3-2:The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an
official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is
about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld. The
entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower
except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must
jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next
opportunity to substitute.

The casebook play tells us that "designated jumper" applies to a tapped ball being touched simultaneously by nonjumpers A2 and B2 and then going out of bounds, or the tapped ball being simultaneously controlled by nonjumpers A2 and B2.

The casebook play doesn't tell us what to do if the jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds, but most of us would probably rejump with the same jumpers (are they "designated jumpers"?).

It also doesn't tell us that "designated jumper" applies to a rejump as in my first situation where the tossed ball hits the floor untouched.

Shouldn't "designated jumper" also apply to my first situation?

Billy:

Situation #1: Not legal.

Situations #2 and #3: Legal.

MTD, Sr.

I’m interested to hear your reasoning.
I believe that 1&3 are simple as the substitution restriction does not apply. However, situation 2 is unclear. Is there a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period? If so, is this the same jump ball or a new one?

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 

Bingo.

"That is the question" (William Shakespeare, Hamlet)

Who's A6 ??? Third Base ...
 

There is no A6 in Situation 1?

Beckon Him In ...
 

I thought that this was the clearest situation.

The ball became live on the toss, the game started (thus avoiding the designated starter rule), even though the clock didn't start. Since players don't have to play "a tick", substitute A6 should be allowed to substitute for nonjumper A5.

No "designated jumper" was harmed in the making of this situation.

Do not make stuff up. There is only one place and situation in the rulebook where it states 2 specific players must jump.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Jumpers ...
 

You are certainly correct (actually two situations, nonjumpers simultaneous touch out of bounds, nonjumpers simultaneous possession).

New Situation 4: The jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds.

No rule.

No casebook play.

Do we allow any starters on the court to rejump?

Do we allow any substitutes to rejump?

For an overtime jump, do we allow a substitute (who sat out a tick at the end of the fourth period) to rejump?

Okay, to make it simple. There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

Coaches sending players to the center circle for overtime or the beginning of the game does not fall into the above category.

Now apply that logic to your scenarios.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Logical ...
 

And great logic it is.

BillyMac and NevadaRef: Your attention please.
 

I) 2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 5:

A) The Rules Reference R3-S3-A5 is a typographical error.

1) It is my humble opinion that the correct Rules Reference is R3-S3-A4 and R3-S3-A6.

a) R3-S3-A6 (from the 2002-03 NFHS Rules Book): "A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench personnel is beckoned and/or comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, his/her team
and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out."

i) The word "shall" in the first sentence was changed to "must" in the 2019-20 NFHS Rules Book.

2) Furthermore, a third Rules Reference should have been included in SITUATION 5:

a) R3-S1-A1: "Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain. NOTE: A Team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes that [the] team has an opportunity to win the game."

B) While Situation 5 was published in the Pre-Season Rules Interpretations and was never subsequently added to the Casebook it still remains in effect as would any other published Casebook Play would be (even it is subsequently removed from the Casebook) until a Rule change is adopted that would necessitate a change in the RULING.

C) Based upon the three Rules References that I have provided the RULING in Situation 5 is correct.


II) NFHS Casebook Play 8.2 Situation B (CB Play 8.2B):

A) There is one striking difference between 2002-03 NFHS Rules Interpretations SITUATIOIN 5 and CB Play 8.2B.

1) Team A, in SITUATION 5, had no Substitutes to replace A1 (I assigned the Player with asthma the number A1).

2) Team B, in CB Play 8.2B, had a Substitute as Bench Personnel.

B) When writing the RULING for CB Play 8.2B, I only referenced R2-S3 and R3-S3-A4, but upon reflection I should also have included R3-S1-A1 and R3-S3-A6. But I digress for the moment.

C) We had two opposing Rules that applied to CB Play 8.2B.

1) R3-S1-A1 specifically states that a Team consists of five Players. And must continue to play with less than five Players when it has no substitutes to replace an injured Player.

2) R3-S3-A4 says that B2, "under normal conditions" cannot return to the game until the first opportunity to substitute AFTER the Game Clock has started. But CB Play 8.2B is not a "normal condition".

D) The debate raged around the following question: Which Rule governed: R3-S1-A1 or R3-S3-A4?

1) Was B2 an:

a) eligible Substitute per R3-S1-A1? or

b) ineligible eligible Substitute per R3-S3-A4?

2) There were those (NevadaRef for one) who took the position that R3-S3-A4 governed and it was too bad if Team B had to play with only four players until B2 became an eligible Substitute per R3-S3-A4.

3) I took the position that R3-S1-A1 governed for the following three reasons in order of importance:

a) R3-S1-A1's requirement for five Players to be in the Game when there are five eligible Players, not withstanding R3-S3-A4, is absolute. R3-S3-A4 was written I doubt that the NBC Rules Committee meant to have a Team to be put at a disadvantage because of an injured Play, especially in II-D-3-b below.

b) Illegal contact by A1 caused B2 to become injured and could not remain in the Game.

i) Team B should not be put a disadvantage of playing short-handed against Team A because Team A's infraction of the Rules caused Team B to be short-handed.

c) R2-S3: Sometimes known as "The God Clause". Which must take into account both R3-S1-A1 and R3-S3-A4.

MTD, Sr.

Important!!
 

Nevada:

I mis-read Billy's Original Post. I went back and corrected my RULINGS.

MTD, Sr.

That is a nice sentiment, but is it your personal opinion or can you back that up with an NFHS ruling?
If you notice, I asked earlier in this thread if there is a designated jumper to start the game or any extra period. I couldn’t find a clear answer in the rules book.

Rejumps ...
 

While I respect Raymond's knowledgeable opinion, like Nevaderef, I'm also not as certain as Raymond seems to be regarding these rejump situations and replacements/substitutes.

Of course, as basketball officials we often hang our hat on if it's not illegal, it's legal, usually with pretty valid interpretations.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.a...=0&w=234&h=176

Once In Ten Million Games ...
 

I just realized that Raymond took two very specific casebook situations and came up with a pretty good general statement that should cover other situations.

(However, one of those two specific casebook situations (nonjumpers simultaneous touch out of bounds) is technically not a held ball. Maybe Raymond can re-word his statement.)

New Situation 5: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-jump”?

By Raymond's general casebook based rule, only A1 and B1 can "re-jump".

New Situation 6: Following the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the tapped ball is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and then the ball goes out of bounds. On the “re-jump” between new “designated jumpers” A2 and B2, jumpers A2 and B2 simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-re-jump”?

By Raymond's general casebook based rule, only A2 and B2 can "re-jump".

I realize that Situation 6 is an extremely rare situation that may occur only once in ten million games, but don't situations like this allow us to really study, examine, and understand the rules and casebook interpretations?

Too bad Raymond's general statement probably doesn't cover my first two situations involving replacement jumpers or substitute jumpers where a poor toss by the official, or poor jumps by the jumpers, caused the re-jump, not a held ball (or similar) situation.

Going back to the Ancient (Pre-AP Arrow) Days "New Situation 6" could be descibed to include any time that A2 and B2 simultaneously caused the Ball to go Out-of-Bounds, whether or not there was Team Control at the time that the Ball went Out-of-Bounds, A2 and B2 would be the Jumpers, and either one could only be replaced because of injury. And it would also apply to "New Situation 5". Meaning that in the Post-Ancient Days "New Situations 5 and 6" would be treated the same way: the two Players who simultaneously caused the Ball to go Out-of-Bounds would be the Jumpers and either one could only be replaced because of injury.

MTD, Sr.

Jump (Van Halen, 1983) ...
 

Might as well jump (jump)
Go ahead and jump
Might as well jump (jump)
Go ahead and jump

I believe that Nevadaref and Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. have hit the nail right on the head.

In 1985 when the NFHS Rules Committee adopted the alternating possession throw‐in for all jump or held‐ball situations except the start of the game and each extra period they appear to have failed to change all the language to fully cover all situations that could possibly lead to a post-1985 jump ball.

Have we discovered a thirty-five year old careless, incomplete, editing mistake?

Is "designated jumper" another fine mess that the NFHS has gotten us into (with apologies to Oliver Hardy)?

Even if the jump ball language was cleaned up, would it help with my first two situations involving replacement/substitute jumpers where a poor toss by the official, or poor jumps by the jumpers, caused the re-jump (not caused by a held ball or simultaneous touch out of bounds situation before the alternating possession arrow had been established).

As LRZ stated earlier, there are no "entering substitute" restrictions because it's the start of the game (not an overtime period).

These situations are not about restricting "entering substitutes", these situations are about possibly restricting "designated jumpers".

Young'uns can search "fine mess" and Oliver Hardy on the Google.

Sorry Coach ...
 

By the way, in the heat of the game, I'm not allowing the Team A coach to make either of these substitutions/replacements.

Now, if I were taking a written exam on these two situations, I'm still leaning the same way based on the ancient concept of "designated jumper", but I can be convinced otherwise.

You can feel free to show me where in the rule book anything I said is incorrect. You've already stated you can't find anywhere in the rule that states the opening and OT jumpers are "designated", so you obviously can't refute that sentiment.

If you are going to take your usual condescending tone, at least have a citation or reference to go along with it. My rule book reference has already been posted by others.

I have not seen a citation or reference that tells me I can't allow subs in those situations.

A1 is a jumper by virtue of having participated in the initial jump ball. Because it did not legally end, he still remains a jumper. A jumper or a free thrower cannot be substituted for unless he is injured, ill, or disqualified. A6 cannot enter the game to substitute for A1, because the jump ball has not ended. If the jump ball had been legally or illegally ended, i.e. because of a jump ball violation or one jumper tipping the ball straight out of bounds, then the substitution of A6 for A1 would be legal. A2 cannot replace A1 because the jump ball must be attempted again. According to Rule 6-4-3-NOTE, "When the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be in the center restraining circle between the two players involved in the subsequent action." The subsequent action was A1 and B1 failing to touch the tossed ball, so they must, by rule, be the two players involved in the second jump ball.

1985 ...
 

I agree, which is why I asked about these situations to begin with. I believe that the NFHS dropped the ball back in 1985 and didn't do a perfect job, taking into consideration all possible situations, of changing the game from one with many jump balls to a game with one (or a few) jump balls, especially by diluting the meaning of "designated jumper".

Interesting ...
 

Interesting citation ilyazhito. It may bring something new to the table. I may be the citation that I was (unsuccessfully) looking for.

In 6-4-3 (which deals with alternating possession, not jump balls), there is a toss, a touch by at least one jumper, and a subsequent action. Not so in situation 1. Let's say A1 and B1 are the jumpers, but A2 and B2 simultaneously touch the ball going out of bounds (the subsequent action). The note says A2 and B2 would jump.

But situation 1 involves a different set of facts. R tosses the ball, neither jumper touches it, and it falls to the floor. What is the "subsequent"--"following"--action? There is none, so this note language does not apply. "The subsequent action was A1 and B1 failing to touch the tossed ball, so they must, by rule, be the two players involved in the second jump ball." This is a distorted, erroneous reading of the word "subsequent."

"Because it [the jump ball] did not legally end, he [A1] still remains a jumper."
"A2 cannot replace A1 because the jump ball must be attempted again."

We've already established that 3-3-2 does not prohibit the switch. What rule or case says that another player already on the floor cannot replace--not sub for, but replace--the original jumper? Citation, please?

As for who or what does the designating, the rule and case books are silent on this. In truth, no one designates the jumpers; they "self-designate." The horn sounds, ten players come onto the floor, two enter the center circle, the R tosses the ball, and away we go.

If you are going to bar something, you need a relevant rule or case, or a less-convoluted (and more germane) analysis. Arcane, out-of-context readings are pedantry, and can result in OOO.

Subsequent ...
 

Caused me to take pause as well.

Wrong Way Corrigan ...
 

Or, if you prefer, Wrong Way Riegels.

What? You don't tell all the players to hold their spots?

I actually have a prejump routine that only an official with obsessive compulsive disorder could appreciate.

I point to the bench to my left, then point to the jumper to my left, both times stating the color of their jerseys, and then point the opposite (right) way and state, "That way".

I follow that by pointing to the bench to my right, then point to the jumper to my right, both times stating the color of their jerseys, and then point the opposite (left) way and state, "That way".

Ever since they changed the basket/bench rule, I've never started the wrong way because of me. Of course this doesn't work for overtime.

Young'uns can look for Wrong Way Corrigan and Wrong Way Riegels on the Google.

I don't tell anyone to hold their spots. I just bounce the ball, blow the whistle, and point in each direction to indicate where each team is going. If I see non-jumpers encroaching onto the circle, I remind them to stay off the circle. Otherwise, I just toss the ball after a random interval of time, and off we go.

If the rules say the jumper can't be substituted for except for a few enumerated exceptions, and none of those exceptions happen, he can't be substituted for, period. If a free thrower can't be replaced, and jumpers and free throwers are treated equivalently by the rules, at least when it comes to substitution, it then stands to reason that the jumper can't be changed unless there is a new jump ball situation, something prevents him from participating (injury, illness, or disqualifications), or the jump ball situation ends some other way (e.g. technical foul).

You are conflating "substituting" and "replacing" and then adding in "changing." They are not interchangeable. Also see post #21 on why 3-3-2 does not apply to a jumper switch with a player already in the game.

Microbursts Of Mayhem ...
 

... until the ball is tossed after which they can move onto the circle into an unoccupied space, even if it's before the tossed ball is touched by the jumper. Yada yada yada.

Replacement Not Substitute ...
 

3-3-2: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

In Situation 1, by usual convention, A1, A2, A3, A4, and A5 are all starters (lets stay away from overtime, it adds a new layer of complexity) and are already the game. In Situation 1, no substitutes are involved.

Sorry if this confused anybody.

Note: Situation 2 involved a substitute, identified, by usual convention as A6.

Egregious Jump Ball Violations ...
 

Yada yada yada. Isn't this how some (but not all) otherwise very good officials view the jump ball rules? Only memorizing and calling the most egregious violations (ball touched on the way up, ball touched three times by jumper, ball caught by jumper), especially in a two person game, often ignoring (or not being able to fully observe) all eight nonjumpers?

I'm considered to be pretty good with rules (colleagues often come to me with rule questions and interpretations and I've served on various training committees), but I had to double check this situation (below) before I posted it. Ilyazhito's post seemed too simple, I sensed that he was missing something, but I still had to look it up it the rulebook.

Will Rogers On The Forum ???
 

It was a rhetorical question.

Realistically, I won't be able to monitor them coming onto the circle, as that is the U1's job. My reminder is so that they don't crowd the circle before the toss. What they do after the ball is tossed is their business. The U1 (and U2, if it is a 3-person game, and the players are coming from his area) should be able to deal with players illegally encroaching on the plane of the center circle.
6-3-8 NOTE states that if the jumpers fail to touch the ball on the initial toss, they will be ordered to jump and touch the ball on the re-toss. This implies that the same jumpers will have to jump if the jump ball is repeated.
To reduce confusion, I recommend that the state rules interpreters come up with consistent answers for these questions, and I further move that answers to these questions be incorporated into future editions of the NFHS casebook.

The Holy Grail ...
 

Great citation ilyazhito. Is this the Holy Grail we've been seeking?

6-3-8 Note: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.
The jumper is also not required to jump and attempt to touch the tossed
ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball it should be tossed again
with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the ball.

This citation seems to forbid a replacement, or a substitute jumper (unless said jumper is bleeding, injured, or disqualified) in Situation 1 and Situation 2 (below).

Situation 1: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that starter A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Situation 2: Similar to Situation 1 to begin the game, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Discussion?

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.T...=0&w=270&h=180

Substitute Or Replacement Allowed ???
 

I don't believe that 6-3-8 Note applies to the four situations below.

Situation 5A: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-jump”?

Situation 5B: Similar to Situation 5A to begin the game (jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds) but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Situation 6A: Following the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the tapped ball is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and then the ball goes out of bounds. On the “re-jump” between new “designated jumpers” A2 and B2, jumpers A2 and B2 simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-re-jump”?

Situation 6B: Similar to Situation 6A to begin the game, but before the re-re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for A2. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A2 is not injured nor is A2 bleeding.

Based on this thread, I'm probably allowing a substitute or a replacement in Situations 5A, 5B, 6A. and 6B.

But does this (below) have any general implications in Situations 5A, 5B, 6A. and 6B (above)?

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; In (b) A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

Discussion?

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.F...=0&w=335&h=168

No More Jump Balls. ...
 

In a two person game, the umpire has to chop in the tap, so he's only looking at the jumpers with his direct vision between the toss and the tap.

How can the umpire (two person game) accurately and realistically observe (with peripheral vision) all eight nonjumpers (and often the two jumpers) for violations, especially when jump ball rules are so complex (and we only see a jump ball about once a game), especially the seldom called violations (those other than ball touched on the way up, ball touched three times by jumper, ball caught by jumper), when such violations happen in a split second, keeping in mind that some have described jump balls as microbursts of mayhem.

It's the twentieth-first century. We now have alternating possession arrows. No more jump balls. Start the game by giving the ball to the visiting team and use the alternating possession arrow after that, including the overtime periods.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.A...=0&w=325&h=172

You are going to forbid something based on a debatable, tortured inference? Where not specifically prohibited by the rules?

The 6-3-8 note does not say "the same jumpers." "Both jumpers" can refer to the two players who enter the center circle for the second attempt--ie, replacements like A2.

Holy Grail? Hardly.

If the rules are not clear, and if it doesn't matter if a floor player replaces a jumper, why would we prohibit the replacement on the re-jump? Isn't that OOO?

I've already posted too often on this thread, so I will now retire to the sidelines, and let BillyMac and ilyazhaito continue this discussion.

Both Jumpers Not Same As Same Jumpers ...
 

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.s...=0&w=436&h=186

How about a substitute (not a replacement), as in Situation 2 (since there doesn't appear to be a "designated jumper" as 3-3-2 states, 3-3-2 may only refer to 6.4.1 SITUATION C)?

Another great point by LRZ. His hits just keep on coming (reminds me of listening to AM radio on the beach in the summer as a teenager).

And a banner with your username will be hoisted up into the rafters. And maybe a promotion to Esteemed Forum Member? Not too shabby for a guy with less than a thousand Forum posts.

Consensus ...
 

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

So, after over sixty posts in this thread, are we all agreed that these two specific situations (above) are the only two specific situations where the rules designate jumpers, who cannot be replaced, or substituted for (unless injured, bleeding, disqualified)?

And that in all other possible jump ball situations, jumpers may be replaced (a player already on the floor), or substituted for (eligible substitutes, i.e., sit a tick, where appropriate, i.e., overtime jump ball).

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.P...=0&w=245&h=184

If and when Michigan allows basketball again, they've issued return to play guidelines for basketball. One of the items contained therein eliminates jump balls.

• The visiting team gets the ball to start the game and the home team gets the next arrow.
• Overtimes start with a coin-toss to determine possession and arrow.

I guess a flipping coin will now be part of my basketball gear for the coming year.

Ancient Times ...
 

It just dawned on me what old timers like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. and Nevaderef are referring to when they talked about pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, ancient times, and why these situations may be confusing for some of us, and controversial for others.

Let's take a close look at a very simple jump ball situation: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds.

Pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, this is how we would have handled it. Jumpers A1 and B1 would be "designated" (no replacement or substitute allowed) to re-jump in the closest of three jump ball circles.

This would be handled as any other situation where the ball simultaneously went out of bounds off of any two players (even in non-jump situations). The two players who simultaneously touched a ball that went out of bounds would be "designated" (no replacement or substitute allowed) to jump in the closest of three jump ball circles.

Back then, not every jump ball situation resulted in "designated jumpers" (i.e., ball lodged between flange and backboard), but many did, including some of the situations that we've been discussing in this thread.

Now post-1985, post-alternating possession arrow, we use the alternating possession arrow instead of real jump balls in situations where there would have been real jump balls previously to the 1985 alternating possession arrow, except jump balls to start the game, or the overtime(s).

In 1985 when the NFHS Rules Committee adopted the alternating possession arrow for all (previous) jump ball or held‐ball situations except the start of the game and each extra period, they appear to have failed to change all the language to fully cover all situations that could possibly lead to a pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, real jump ball (many with "designated jumpers").

Did the NFHS intentionally leave out many "designated jumper" situations, thus allowing replacement or substitute jumpers, or was it a mistake?

Rock, Paper, Scissors ...
 

Like it, except the coin toss part. Start the overtime period like the three previous periods, with the alternating possession arrow.

1909 VDB Lincoln Wheat Penny ...
 

Cool. I never officiated a sport that needed a coin. I would get a really cool coin, a Morgan Silver Dollar, or one of those modern gold colored coins (Sacagawea Dollars, Presidential Dollars).

Stat-Man, when I referee soccer, I hide my whistle behind my back, put it in one hand or the other, and have the visiting captain choose "left" or "right."

It's not a "coin toss," but it works.

Un-Retire ???
 

But that's against Michigan basketball rules. The rule says "coin toss", it means coin toss, not whistle guess.

Wait a minute? I thought LRZ retired from this thread? We already hoisted the banner with his username up into the rafters.

Well I guess that if Bob Cousy, Michael Jordan, and Magic Johnson can do it, so can LRZ.

Was It A Mistake ???
 

Yes it certainly can, but does it?

Because it can also refer to the previous jumpers, but does it?

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.T...=0&w=300&h=300

I don't blame myself, or anybody else, for being confused, or wrong, regarding these situations and interpretations.

I blame the stupid NFHS.

To the NFHS:

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.H...=0&w=300&h=300

If no one enforces all of the rules all of the time, why do some keep focusing on what the rules always dictate and use that to seemingly end their discussion/argument? Seems hypocritical doesn't it? Hmmm.:cool:

Love you BM.

Key Word: Trying ...
 

I was trying to be funny.

Hiding inside my secret underground COVID shelter is getting to me.

I had to bring a baby gift from my neighbor to my daughter's house yesterday (I wore a mask, didn't touch anybody).

I didn't want to leave. Didn't want to go home. Took me fifteen minutes to leave after I said "goodbye" and threw kisses to my three grandsons.

If NFHS dropped the ball on editing language after the transition from jump balls the entire game to jump balls only to start the game and overtime periods, I wouldn't be surprised. NFHS rulebooks and tests have been known to contain editing mistakes, questions with no correct answer, and changes for little reason, such as "must" to "shall" in the 2019-20 edition of the rulebook, and the subsequent changes back for the 2020-21 edition.

Let's Party Like It's 1985 (With Apologies To Prince) ...
 

This is my opinion on what happened in 1985 (my fourth year officiating basketball).

The NFHS wanted to simply get rid of all real jump balls except start/overtime. Sounds simple enough right, and then they put a ton of effort into explaining how the new alternating possession arrow and procedures would work, figuring that they could just leave start/overtime jump ball language pretty much as it already existed with little change. They figured that the start/overtime jump ball would be the same, unchanged, as it was in the past.

Of course, the use of the alternating possession arrow (as opposed to a real jump ball) never requires any "designated" players.

In getting rid of all non-start/non-overtime jump balls from the rulebook and casebook, they inadvertently got rid of some non-start/non-overtime situations that could actually occur in a start/overtime jump ball, for example, two jumpers simultaneously tapping the jump ball of bounds.

Previous to 1985 we all knew exactly how to handle this very simple situation, whether it occurred at start/overtime, or in the middle of the game, even between two players who were not jumpers. These situations were handled with a jump ball between the two players involved, in other words "designated jumpers", who couldn't be substituted for, or replaced.

For those of us old enough to have officiated before 1985, we remember those pre-1985 situations, and how to handle them, with lots (although not all, i.e., flange/backboard) of situations with "designated jumpers", and very strict interpretations of not allowing substitutes/replacements for "designated jumpers".

Younger officials can only look at the current rulebook and casebook language, and see only two very specific situations regarding "designated jumpers", and far less strict interpretations regarding substitutes/replacements for "designated jumpers".

I find it very hard to believe that the NFHS intended (as in "intent and purpose") for only two very specific situations regarding "designated jumpers" with very strict limits on substitution/replacement of "designated jumpers":

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.d...=0&w=259&h=177

Quote, Unquote ...
 

Wow. I didn't think that this quote would add any sense of closure to this issue, but it seems to have worked.

We know that won't stop you ;)

You Are Correct Sir ...
 

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.8...=0&w=243&h=168

Came across this during a different casebook search:

6.1.1 COMMENT: Unless a technical foul occurs or a player violates during the dead ball which precedes the start of the game or each extra period, the game and each extra period is started with a jump ball in the center restraining circle. A rejump may be necessary between the jumpers or if the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, a jump ball will take place between the two players involved at the center restraining circle

So my logic still fits.

There are designated jumpers in the rulebook only in situations where two players cause a held ball prior to possession being established for the purposes of setting the AP arrow.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

That's My Story And I'm Sticking To It ...
 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.