Interesting ...
 

Interesting citation ilyazhito. It may bring something new to the table. I may be the citation that I was (unsuccessfully) looking for.

In 6-4-3 (which deals with alternating possession, not jump balls), there is a toss, a touch by at least one jumper, and a subsequent action. Not so in situation 1. Let's say A1 and B1 are the jumpers, but A2 and B2 simultaneously touch the ball going out of bounds (the subsequent action). The note says A2 and B2 would jump.

But situation 1 involves a different set of facts. R tosses the ball, neither jumper touches it, and it falls to the floor. What is the "subsequent"--"following"--action? There is none, so this note language does not apply. "The subsequent action was A1 and B1 failing to touch the tossed ball, so they must, by rule, be the two players involved in the second jump ball." This is a distorted, erroneous reading of the word "subsequent."

"Because it [the jump ball] did not legally end, he [A1] still remains a jumper."
"A2 cannot replace A1 because the jump ball must be attempted again."

We've already established that 3-3-2 does not prohibit the switch. What rule or case says that another player already on the floor cannot replace--not sub for, but replace--the original jumper? Citation, please?

As for who or what does the designating, the rule and case books are silent on this. In truth, no one designates the jumpers; they "self-designate." The horn sounds, ten players come onto the floor, two enter the center circle, the R tosses the ball, and away we go.

If you are going to bar something, you need a relevant rule or case, or a less-convoluted (and more germane) analysis. Arcane, out-of-context readings are pedantry, and can result in OOO.

Subsequent ...
 

Caused me to take pause as well.

Wrong Way Corrigan ...
 

Or, if you prefer, Wrong Way Riegels.

What? You don't tell all the players to hold their spots?

I actually have a prejump routine that only an official with obsessive compulsive disorder could appreciate.

I point to the bench to my left, then point to the jumper to my left, both times stating the color of their jerseys, and then point the opposite (right) way and state, "That way".

I follow that by pointing to the bench to my right, then point to the jumper to my right, both times stating the color of their jerseys, and then point the opposite (left) way and state, "That way".

Ever since they changed the basket/bench rule, I've never started the wrong way because of me. Of course this doesn't work for overtime.

Young'uns can look for Wrong Way Corrigan and Wrong Way Riegels on the Google.

I don't tell anyone to hold their spots. I just bounce the ball, blow the whistle, and point in each direction to indicate where each team is going. If I see non-jumpers encroaching onto the circle, I remind them to stay off the circle. Otherwise, I just toss the ball after a random interval of time, and off we go.

If the rules say the jumper can't be substituted for except for a few enumerated exceptions, and none of those exceptions happen, he can't be substituted for, period. If a free thrower can't be replaced, and jumpers and free throwers are treated equivalently by the rules, at least when it comes to substitution, it then stands to reason that the jumper can't be changed unless there is a new jump ball situation, something prevents him from participating (injury, illness, or disqualifications), or the jump ball situation ends some other way (e.g. technical foul).

You are conflating "substituting" and "replacing" and then adding in "changing." They are not interchangeable. Also see post #21 on why 3-3-2 does not apply to a jumper switch with a player already in the game.

Microbursts Of Mayhem ...
 

... until the ball is tossed after which they can move onto the circle into an unoccupied space, even if it's before the tossed ball is touched by the jumper. Yada yada yada.

Replacement Not Substitute ...
 

3-3-2: The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

In Situation 1, by usual convention, A1, A2, A3, A4, and A5 are all starters (lets stay away from overtime, it adds a new layer of complexity) and are already the game. In Situation 1, no substitutes are involved.

Sorry if this confused anybody.

Note: Situation 2 involved a substitute, identified, by usual convention as A6.

Egregious Jump Ball Violations ...
 

Yada yada yada. Isn't this how some (but not all) otherwise very good officials view the jump ball rules? Only memorizing and calling the most egregious violations (ball touched on the way up, ball touched three times by jumper, ball caught by jumper), especially in a two person game, often ignoring (or not being able to fully observe) all eight nonjumpers?

I'm considered to be pretty good with rules (colleagues often come to me with rule questions and interpretations and I've served on various training committees), but I had to double check this situation (below) before I posted it. Ilyazhito's post seemed too simple, I sensed that he was missing something, but I still had to look it up it the rulebook.

Will Rogers On The Forum ???
 

It was a rhetorical question.

Realistically, I won't be able to monitor them coming onto the circle, as that is the U1's job. My reminder is so that they don't crowd the circle before the toss. What they do after the ball is tossed is their business. The U1 (and U2, if it is a 3-person game, and the players are coming from his area) should be able to deal with players illegally encroaching on the plane of the center circle.
6-3-8 NOTE states that if the jumpers fail to touch the ball on the initial toss, they will be ordered to jump and touch the ball on the re-toss. This implies that the same jumpers will have to jump if the jump ball is repeated.
To reduce confusion, I recommend that the state rules interpreters come up with consistent answers for these questions, and I further move that answers to these questions be incorporated into future editions of the NFHS casebook.

The Holy Grail ...
 

Great citation ilyazhito. Is this the Holy Grail we've been seeking?

6-3-8 Note: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.
The jumper is also not required to jump and attempt to touch the tossed
ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball it should be tossed again
with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the ball.

This citation seems to forbid a replacement, or a substitute jumper (unless said jumper is bleeding, injured, or disqualified) in Situation 1 and Situation 2 (below).

Situation 1: Official tosses the ball to begin the game. Jumpers A1 and B1 are unable to touch the tossed ball and the ball hits the floor. The ball became live with the toss, the game officially starts, but the clock didn't start. Team A coach requests that starter A2 jump in the re-tossed jump ball. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Situation 2: Similar to Situation 1 to begin the game, but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Discussion?

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.T...=0&w=270&h=180

Substitute Or Replacement Allowed ???
 

I don't believe that 6-3-8 Note applies to the four situations below.

Situation 5A: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-jump”?

Situation 5B: Similar to Situation 5A to begin the game (jumpers simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds) but before the re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for jumper A1. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A1 is not injured nor is A1 bleeding.

Situation 6A: Following the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the tapped ball is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and then the ball goes out of bounds. On the “re-jump” between new “designated jumpers” A2 and B2, jumpers A2 and B2 simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds. No substitutes report to the X in front of the table. Of the ten starters on the court, who is allowed to jump in the “re-re-jump”?

Situation 6B: Similar to Situation 6A to begin the game, but before the re-re-tossed jump ball, Team A coach wants to substitute A6 for A2. A6 is waiting on the X in front of the table and is ready to be the new jumper. A2 is not injured nor is A2 bleeding.

Based on this thread, I'm probably allowing a substitute or a replacement in Situations 5A, 5B, 6A. and 6B.

But does this (below) have any general implications in Situations 5A, 5B, 6A. and 6B (above)?

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; In (b) A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

Discussion?

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.F...=0&w=335&h=168

No More Jump Balls. ...
 

In a two person game, the umpire has to chop in the tap, so he's only looking at the jumpers with his direct vision between the toss and the tap.

How can the umpire (two person game) accurately and realistically observe (with peripheral vision) all eight nonjumpers (and often the two jumpers) for violations, especially when jump ball rules are so complex (and we only see a jump ball about once a game), especially the seldom called violations (those other than ball touched on the way up, ball touched three times by jumper, ball caught by jumper), when such violations happen in a split second, keeping in mind that some have described jump balls as microbursts of mayhem.

It's the twentieth-first century. We now have alternating possession arrows. No more jump balls. Start the game by giving the ball to the visiting team and use the alternating possession arrow after that, including the overtime periods.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.A...=0&w=325&h=172

You are going to forbid something based on a debatable, tortured inference? Where not specifically prohibited by the rules?

The 6-3-8 note does not say "the same jumpers." "Both jumpers" can refer to the two players who enter the center circle for the second attempt--ie, replacements like A2.

Holy Grail? Hardly.

If the rules are not clear, and if it doesn't matter if a floor player replaces a jumper, why would we prohibit the replacement on the re-jump? Isn't that OOO?

I've already posted too often on this thread, so I will now retire to the sidelines, and let BillyMac and ilyazhaito continue this discussion.