Camps this Offseason
 

Fellow Officials! Many of us have registered for camps this offseason hoping to improve our skills, get exposure to assigners, and/or get hired at a higher level. Unfortunately, because of the COVID-19 pandemic, many camps have been postponed or cancelled. What do assigners do if their camps get cancelled?

I'm curious, because I'd like to know what will happen. I've registered for 2 teaching camps and 3 tryout camps. One tryout camp is cancelled, one teaching camp is cancelled, and the rest are undetermined. I've also been invited by one of my high school associations into an evaluation and promotion program, but I'm waiting on if that will actually happen. If camps don't happen, how do assigners assess new officials to hire them?

At the college level, they don't. And they don't need to in most cases. The majority of college assigners have more officials on their rosters than they truly need to cover their games. The camps are merely money-makers under the guise of training and evaluation, and normally a handful of newbies get picked up. No camp just means they likely won't hire new guys this offseason (and, of course, will miss out on the profits of camp).

But, if an assigner truly does need or wants to hire additional officials, he/she will have "trusted advisers" who can attest to a prospective official's ability (or lack thereof). I know one guy who is getting in a league by word of mouth for 2020-21, and I would assume the expectation will be that he attends camp in 2021.

Maybe this pandemic will blow up the camp racket. I won't hold my breath though.

It is going to be very difficult for any college assignor to hire people he or she has never seen before. They might be able to take the word of some people that are on staff or they respect or ask for some recommendations, but that is a very hard thing to expect because there is so much at stake and that applies to all levels of college. Now a high school situation might be a little different as there are likely people that you would work for that have seen you work on some level. But not sure how that is going. Heck we are still trying to figure out if we are going to have a season, so it might not even matter at this point.

Peace

Staffs are going to be reduced. Also there's talk of rolling back game fees because of financial strains on the colleges and universities.

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Not to mention the possibility that schools will cut basketball altogether.

Do you mean D1 staffs? Or staffs in general?

Peace

I know my D1 supervisor is dropping more than he'll hire, that's if he hires anybody. I'll probably be on the cut list because of my age and recent injury.

I have my thoughts on what's going to go on but I don't want to get into all the politics.

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Officials should only be okay with that if the assignors/conference supervisors, university athletic directors, and coaches all take the same pay cut.

Camps are not necessary for hiring. Recommendations to a supervisor or that person or his designee observing the official elsewhere can suffice. Camps are simply a way for supervisors to make money and if it could be demonstrated that they are essentially a kickback to the person doing the hiring, then the system would be illegal under federal law.

I agree in principle, but it’s a principle we don’t have the leverage to stand on. Whether we like to admit it or not, the price point for our service is pretty low.

That said, I don’t see the D3/D2 arena with much wiggle room. Those game fees coupled with the travel and time commitments are already rock bottom. If you lower them any more you might retain the D1 dreamers but you’ll lose your veterans. And as NASO data readily show, there aren’t many dreamers left coming up through the HS level to replace them.


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I disagree. There will always be enough officials who will do whatever it takes to call themselves "college officials" and get as many games as possible. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily, but it does mean that a decrease in game fees likely isn't going to affect the makeup of an overall staff for a particular league.

I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.

There are certainly fewer slots. And working a single college game does not make you a college official. Working multiple weekends and likely multiple conferences really makes you a college official. But again this is very much subjected to where you are in the country. Some areas like my area has several schools all over the place at different levels. You might live in an area where you only have a D2 conference and it is spread out all over the place.

Peace

Not really interested in the definition of a college official.

My point was that there is plenty of supply for college basketball and lower demand. A decrease in game fees is unlikely to change that, not unless you're talking getting down close to HS fees.

Whereas in high school it's not uncommon for demand to be greater than supply. Depending on your geographic area, of course.

Regardless of whether you agree with or not, you are being charged for their time and their service. After all you should go to camps with the idea you are going to learn something. If your only goal is to only get hired, you are doing it wrong. Also the better camps that cost the most money, often have several people on their staff or retired officials that have a lot of knowledge, they are sitting all day to watch you work a game to give you some information. And they are asked to tell the assignor who they should consider.

If we don't like the camp system, what is the solution? If you want people hired simply off of recommendations and not seeing them work or only watch someone on film (which everyone cannot get for their games), then we would complain who is getting hired.

Peace

Nowhere did I say eliminate camps, Jeff. I called out the double-dipping profiteering by coordinators which apparently league commissioners are oblivious to, or just don't care about. Have camp all you want, but charging more than what's needed to cover your expenses is unethical when you are already getting paid by the conference, plain and simple.

I don't anticipate it ever changing. After all, this is a capitalistic society. But the college camp circuit is a racket, and everyone knows it.

And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of tryout camps are the exact same year-after-year. Just because you pay $600 to go to a consortium camp does not mean you are learning anymore there than you would if you paid $200 to go to a camp hosted by an NBA official. So the notion that "the better camps cost the most money" is kind of ridiculous. Those camps are not wildly expensive because of their outstanding instruction.

But when people say to change the camp system, they often say to eliminate or change the camps. So that is why I asked what is the solution? Are we are to be happy with that change?

There are people that might be upset about how much they pay for a specific camp, but that might be based the camp they are attending.

I have been to both. Usually, the $200 camp has fewer games and fewer payoffs if hired. Usually, that is the cost for those that work lower-level conferences (NAIA or Division 3) where you might make that back in one game check. You get hired at the $600 camp, the check for those games has a comma associated with them. It is a choice that you have to make. You are an independent contractor. If I go to a sales seminar or some training for self-improvement, I might pay more to attend and that will include the same expenses. I might pay a lot more than $600 to register as well. This is a business, this is not an obligation for you to attend. That is certainly not the cost for local high school camps that I am associated with that might be anywhere from $25 to $60 as an average if you need to get high school credit and officials in my area complain about that!!!! And you had no overnight stays, no multiple days and even if you are working with the right camp, they might get you some money to work additional games so you get some of your camp fee back.

Peace

The college camp system is in definite need of an overhaul. Supervisors are double dipping, and most times you are not getting instruction commensurate to the amount of money you pay. Additionally, quite often no matter how good you are, you're not getting hired the first time around. Some supervisors say that it's a function of "getting to know you better", but just as often it's a function of getting more money from that official before hiring them.

What's really appalling are camps that charge $500 to $600 yet provide no housing or meals.



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This really is about the level of camp you are attending. Because an NAIA or D3 camp is not the same as a major conference consortium camp. Those have a much smaller margin for error. Also if you attend those games, you can get hired the first time, but you probably have to be already working D1. I have a friend that got hired going the first time, but he was already working at the D1 level. And he had some people speaking on his behalf too which helped.

I got hired in two leagues I work the first time I attended camp too, but that was lower-level college and I was recommended to go to the camps. Also in both those camps, almost all the clinicians were the same so I was seen 3 times by the same people in for these two supervisors. Any little thing helps. Oh, neither of those camps I referenced were over $300. The supervisors are D1 officials and my location change probably helped too.

I do not know how I get hired in either without going to camp. This also might be a part of the country thing too. Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to. The Midwest where I live, the B1G has taken over several leagues and took on a couple of D3 leagues under their umbrella. So an official that works D3 can go to the B1G camp and already have access to those that make the decision for the consortium hires. I have no idea what happens on the East Coast or the South. The SEC has a new supervisor so we will see if he changes some things.

Peace

Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.

The only D1 assignor "out west" has an invite only camp conducted in the Spring for the past 3-years in Phoenix, Az. The only cost to campers was transportation and hotel accommodations. It was was canceled this year due to the pandemic and not rescheduled.

And how do you get on the invite list?

Peace

"Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to."

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm really just curious: is there an interesting or relevant story behind this?

To my understanding the conference did not want them to hold camps. But the problem is that you have to be invited to some events to even be considered. So while everyone seems to not like the camp system, that really limits who is considered.

At least a camp you can apply on some level for the job. That is why I asked what is the better solution? It is like bitching about sportsmanship and we have no solution to how to solve the issue. Because if you desire to be considered, how do you get considered without camps? And does that apply to lower-level leagues the same way? How does a guy in Ohio that has a league spread out over 5 states know that a person on th border of one of the states and is closer to the school a school he assigns than most of the staff, how does he know that person exists? Not everyone is going to sit and watch your high school game film. And how are they going to get access to the film in the first place without a national registry of games available somewhere online?

I am not in love with the overall camp season either, but trying to figure out what is the solution?

Peace

Kind of spitballing here but I think the roots might go back to when Ed Rush was the supervisor of the Pac-12. Most NBA guys hate the college camp system (Joe Forte being a notable exception, but at least his camps were cheaper than most).

Ed Rush was going to revamp the whole hiring system for the Pac-12, and from what I heard he rubbed a lot of veterans the wrong way with some of his ideas. I'm thinking that after dealing with Ed Rush, even though he's gone now, the powers-that-be realize that the traditional college camp system is not the proper way to hire officials.

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I don't even recall his camp being that cheap for the leagues he had (of course he only has one D2 league now so maybe he's come down).

I went to one of his camps the year I got hired in my first two D3 conferences (2008). The camp was only $200.

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Submit a resume to a member of the rating/evaluation consortium staff. They conduct a background check of your resume from your listed college assignors and stated post-season assignments; there have been applicants who were denied because they "exaggerated" their resume. If it all passed, they made a list of the camp invitees for approval from BD.

Ok, but how does that tell me how you communicate with a coach? How does that tell me that you understand basic mechanics and movements? How many of these invite sessions are run? Do the conferences invest in those to staff those events? Or does the conference hire the assignor to choose who would make the staff?

Sometimes the official might have a "resume'" but cannot referee. That is the rub. Because I love that people complain about the camp system and say how it is an "ole boy system." But are we going to be OK if only certain people get invited and no way to determine who can work other than a pure recommendation? Because even if I apply, then it will be based on who gave the recommendation, not that one was given.

We do also realize that major conferences do not often invest money into their officiating program for hiring? Now I know the B1G says they invest around 12 million a year on officiating fees and training programs a year and part of that is camps. Not sure what they make if anything off of those camps or put the money back into their program. That I do not remember, I cannot speak for what the other BCS Conferences do. I just have a little knowledge of what B1G does because I am under their program.

Peace

So far all of my camps have been cancelled, except for one in Texas which was rescheduled to late June. That ticked me off, because D1 extended the dead period to July, and DII can only recruit on-campus. I'm not so naive to believe that some college coaches won't be there, but I have friends who coach AAU on the East Coast, and they've told me they've cancelled all events for their players until July/August. This is clearly so the assignor can collect a check, and the people hosting the tournament don't have to issue a refund.

I also have another assignor who keeps sending us emails saying that "Our camps will be rescheduled to the late summer/early fall." Sure.

I do college soccer, and one of the leagues sent our assignor an email requesting that we hold off on bumping up our pay, and it included the details for all sports in that conference. It totals to an extra $20 a game; not per person, but per game. Basketball was adding an additional $5 per person, and they're asking for that to be suspended. Tough times.

I'm pretty sure we're both receiving that email from the same person.

But since I'm coming off a season where I injured my knee and had surgery and lost about 80-90% of my season, I'm looking forward to opportunities to get on the court....assuming that I want to get on the court in a Covid-19 environment.



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No surprise that assigners want you to believe they will have camp later this summer. The damage to their pocketbooks should they not get to have camp would be significant.

The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

I see nothing wrong with this. I know we do this at lesser camps. And the game fees pay the clinicians that are sitting watching and giving instructions for multiple games. And sometimes those fees are lesser than what an official would be paid for the game or willing to work.

Peace

I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

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Again, I have made very clear that I share the belief that the camp circuit has evolved into a scam. You are never going to hear me pretend otherwise.

And don't forget registration fees collected from officials before the season. They will claim they are "covering their expenses," but shouldn't that be the conference's job?

Yep.

I laugh while listening to the preachy arguments in defense of the camp system. It's as though because I don't think I should have to sell my soul to referee college basketball, I clearly "don't care about getting better" and would be better off just quitting altogether. :rolleyes:

Well I think we need to categorize this on many levels. A camp where there are costing hundreds of dollars I do not treat the same as a camp where you do not pay $100 for the camp. And if I am paying for a camp that is $500 to $600 and my hotel is included, I do not personally care what fees the camp gets because you are saving the camper money. Now if you are charging the camper $500 and not paying for any lodging or any food, then that is a different issue. But again I am going to assume the clinicians are being paid something for attending as well, like their lodging or even a fee for sitting there all day to evaluate campers. I do not look at all camps the same in this respect.

I had this happen to me. I attended a camp and later that summer the supervisor was fired. But I also worked baseball for that individual in that same conference, so it was kind of a blow and probably the closest I got to getting hired in that conference.

But the B1G also invest money into their camp system. Not sure how much of that money I referenced is coming totally out of their pocket when they run camps, but I know they give their campers a lot when you attend. The hotel I stayed in last year would have cost me way over the camp fee if I did not have hotel included and its location.

Peace

Then what is the better solution? Because I feel going to camp can make you better. Sitting at home on social media does not make you better alone. So what is the solution so that you feel that officials are evaluated and hired properly? You would have to have some solution if you have a lot to complain about in the "current" system?

Peace

Christ. Again, making stuff up as usual. Nowhere did I say that camps can't make you better.

If you actually took the time to read my posts in this thread, you would see that I have not called for getting rid of camps (in fact, quite the opposite). I have called out what the camp circuit has evolved into. You act as though camps and the racket they create are one in the same. It doesn't have to be that way. Coordinators could, God forbid, get their leagues to cover the camp expenses, as one idea. After all, why should I have to pay you (an exorbitant amount, at that) for a job interview? That should be your employer's job to cover those costs.

That is great that you don't feel the camps you attend are scams. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as you - and there are plenty of people who don't.

I was asking for a solution. I did not make anything up. There are benefits to the camp system, but if you do not like how they are run, what is the solution to hire and train officials? Because as a person in an industry, I have to pay for training all the time completely out of pocket for a seminar or presentation. Or my company pays for those opportunities for things that are not cheap. So someone is going to pay for these on some level or we will not have them at all. I just want to hear what the solution is?

If you actually took the time to read my posts in this thread, you would see that I have not called for getting rid of camps (in fact, quite the opposite). I have called out what the camp circuit has evolved into. You act as though camps and the racket they create are one in the same. It doesn't have to be that way. Coordinators could, God forbid, get their leagues to cover the camp expenses, as one idea. After all, why should I have to pay you (an exorbitant amount, at that) for a job interview? That should be your employer's job to cover those costs.[/QUOTE]

I did not say you said anything about getting rid of the camp system. I also feel there needs to be changes as well, but understand why they are what they are compared to other industries. We pride ourselves on being "Independent Contractors" but then act as if we are employees when it comes to training and evaluation. Often you pay for those in other industries when you are not an employee. Because if the league covers the cost of the camps, then you will likely not get fees raised or other things we like as well. Not saying that is right, just stating that it is hard to ask for a raise in fees and then have them pay all the cost of the camps. Or not have us complain when they only take "certain people" as even being interviewed.

I've paid less for camps than I have for professional improvement or materials in my professional life. So I see the camp system in its current form as very similar, because I do not have to attend anything. And I said that this might be an issue of where you live and who you work for as an official. I kind of have a little idea of what Raymond is referencing as I have talked to him off this site about a situation that I was considering attending. So I have realized some time ago what happens in the Midwest might not be the case in other parts of the country. And since most people are not talking about a specific level I think that is also different from what the B1G does to a local high school conference and who they hire for their games. If you read what I said, I have made big distinctions to what camps we are talking about here.

Peace

Let me add this last part. I work college football at the Division 3 level and have worked it for almost 8 years or so when they changed the system or the assigning process. I work for the B1G Alliance where they used D3 so that they can get all their officials for that work the MAC, Missouri Valley and even the B1G. All the newer D1 officials come from the D3 ranks for the most part within this Alliance. You know how they pick those officials to even be considered for D3? Who you know. Who you are related to. Who likes you and gives you a recommendation. There are not on-field independent camps where you can work to get some experience or be trained. There is a big training meeting before the season that we do not pay for if you are on a crew or you are on the supplemental list, but it is one day and absolutely no on field evaluation whatsoever. So people get invited to that meeting and hardly have a high school varsity schedule in many situations from my area.

Then I used to work D1 baseball for a brief period of time. I got that opportunity only because I had worked with a minor league umpire (at the time) during the basketball season at a high school basketball game in the middle of December. We had a great game together and got along very well. I had a conversation with this person and talked about how I was a baseball umpire and had some baseball experience at the college level. Well, the conversation went so well, Minor League Umpires went on strike later that fall and he passed my name along to the assignor and I got a call on Saturday of Easter Weekend to go to Valparaiso to finish working a two games of that series at the D1 level on Easter Sunday. I was not going to work the plate and I never had to show up to any camp to get that opportunity. That officials is now an MLB full-time umpire and it was by his word alone I even got considered. I worked for about 2 or 3 years in that conference and mostly worked D2 baseball, but never had to prove it beyond working a real game.

I say all of this because that is what happens without camps at all. Then if you have the right last name or your dad/uncle is in the NFL, then someone gives you a shot that you did not earn by talent or training alone. Certainly not anything a supervisor was exposed to. That is why I ask, "What is the solution?"

Peace

So you're implying that there isn't any nepotism/politics in basketball? Milk through the nose.

There are multiple 20-somethings in the southeast who are in D1 because of their last names.

That is actually not what I said. I said that there is even more when you have nothing else to go on but your name and the powers that be picking people based on nothing but what they are told about a prospect. If you get rid of the camp system or how it is now, you might be more like sports that do not do camps as a way to evaluate new talent. Of course that could work on some level to get rid of the things you do not like, but it creates other bigger issues that officials like to complain about. At least in the current system I am making some kind of choice.

There obviously is some nepotism in basketball. But there are so many spots that there are folks that can overcome some of this in basketball. If I cannot even get access to the people that assign the football conferences by no well-used process, then you have more people getting into place without any proving of their ability.

Peace

The advantages of having family members proceed you in this avocation in the Mid-Atlantic is not a secret and openly acknowledged by the main power broker.

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I work college soccer, and I agree with Rutledge on what happens if you don't have camps. Now, soccer is starting to transition to camps because soccer can't find enough refs, but at these camps we get paid to work. The thing is soccer pays so well, if you tried to get people to try out for anything other than MLS or the minor professional leagues without any payment, people wouldn't go. We still have siblings and family members who get the call for games they aren't ready for, but I've learned to accept that that is going to happen from sports to business to politics to whatever.

The nepotism: As a guy in my mid-20s, the only thing that irks me is when I meet a guy my age who doesn't realize he is in the G-League or on a D1 staff is because of "Daddy". A guy who's been reffing for 3 years is in the D2 National Tournament? What's his last name? Oh yeah, of course. But when that guy has the gall to start talking to me about "Staying hungry" and "Trusting the system"? Take a long walk on a short pier, buddy. You've no idea what you're talking about.

But I agree with Rutledge's overall question: What's the solution? I hate camps, but what do we switch to? Game-film? I got a buddy who paid $525 to have a D1 Women's supervisor rate his film. Would I do that? Maybe, I don't know.

I do think that children of this or relatives can sometimes know things that others do not early in their careers. If you are around something a good portion of your life you can pick up on things that someone not in that are not exposed would know. I can speak for personal experience on this just having a Ph.D. as a parent. Your parents or relatives can give you little nuggets it might take you years to learn on your own. That being all said, I do not like it when you see multiple cases of guys at the top level are there and the only thing that really distinguishes them is their association or name. That is why I am skeptical of when people say they do not like the camp system because I have seen it for years without any camps in other sports. At least with the camp system, I can make a lot of personal choices about what I want to do. Without camps, I have to contact people and hope my name is passed along or recommended. I have gone to camps and gotten hired because I showed what I can do. And there is still a system in place that benefits the children, relatives and very good friends, but at least I can show my worth next to them on some level.

Peace

I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

Talked to somebody today who had initially paid $500 to go to a staff camp this spring, but it got postponed For various reasons they have since decided to relocate to another state, which will take them too far away from the conference. The supervisor does not want to give them back their camp fee, for a camp that's still at least two months away. That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.

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This is the main thing that drives me nuts - the political correctness (for lack of a better term) from the lucky few who have made it to the highest level and want to preach to the commoners. There are many officials who never make it to the highest level and should be there instead of some of the other guys if you just go by ability. And when you point out the politics or the camp racket people say "well, you must not care about getting better." It's as though it's taboo to talk about the flaws.

I wholeheartedly agree. The "free training camps" we have to do for one of our shared assignors does nothing but pad his pocketbook with our sweat. It ticks me off. With all my free time I'm starting to question why I even pursue this hobby at that level.

This issue exists at all levels as well. I think they all secretly want to replace the assignor and then do the same things that we hate, so they can cash in. Or they don't want to acknowledge that they don't belong there. "**** you, I got mine".

I'm not talking about getting rid of camps, either. But I'm not surprised Rut took it that way and won't back down.

I know a certain low-level supervisor who still is wholly convinced he's having camp in some way, some fashion, before the season. Well, good luck finding basketball tournaments to officiate during football season. I don't think he's given anyone their money back and will likely do anything in his power not to.

If you actually read what I said, I was asking for a solution? People that talk complain about the camp system do not explain what is the way to solve the issue. I was asking for solutions and the only other solution that is obvious if you are complaining about something is to either eliminate it or to overhaul the system you are complaining about does not work or is a rachet. Rich says he hires people by using game film. Well if that is the main way you hire prospective officials then you are not using the camp system are you?

Now I can say that just about every high school assignor I work for either runs their own camp or they are apart of some camp that they evaluate or look at propsective officials. Usually those officials are people they have never seen and do not work any lower level games for them during the season. But those that wish to work varsity and have never been seen by an assignor needs to be seen somewhere. Obviously, during the season there are more opportunities to see officials work games as there are plenty of opportunities to watch someone work, but most assignors are active officials and often have to go by what others say or have to be at the right game where they watch fellow officials work. I was also giving a perspective as a multiple sports official that has worked for years in systems where never do you have a camp to get hired. Basketball is the only sport that I can think of where there are multiple opportunities to work games in the off-season and those opportunities can be and have been used as a camp. Not every state has spring football or some off-season opportunity to evaluate talent in a live or semi-live situation. The opportunity we once had in Illinois was taken away with having games no-full contact practices and we never could see teams play each other in that capacity before anyway. Teams could only do that in an intrasquad situation and that was very limited in the first place. Even in baseball and softball, it is very rare to see camps in those settings because it seems that no one wants to run a game based off of training of officials the way we do in basketball. Maybe that should change but that is the way it seems to be now.

All I was asking for was solutions as to how this is changed? Because if the camp directors/organizers and administrators stop taking the pay for the games, how are they paying for all the expenses that would be to run any camp? Right, wrong or indifferent, those events cost money to either staff, hold meetings, or supplement the cost of the camp for materials or other things that campers might get when attending. How do you bring D1 officials from across multiple states and ask them to evaluate officials without compensating them personally in some way? I think that is a fair question and that was all this was about for me. Even a state clinician as I am, I am not coming out all day and spending time watching multiple officials during a day and not getting anything beneficial for my time. And it is standard to pay us something and often we are paid less than $100 over multiple days and even putting together the curriculum with our time outside of family and work so that we fit the standards of the state.

Peace

John Adams before he was the NCAA Men's Supervisor, would run camps for literally $50. Adams at the time assigned a D3 league, D2 league and the Horizon League that is now taken over by the B1G. That was his training ground for his hiring. But the reality is that it was well known that John was a rich man outside of officiating. He would run a couple of these camps to get identify people. But to be fair as much as I loved his camps, they were not about teaching or learning anything. It seemed strictly a way to hire officials. He did not go over mechanics. He did not go over expectations other than he would talk about the "Money of D1 Basketball." He would talk about an hour by why he is not going to hire you, when he could hire Ed Hightower or Steve Welmer because if his teams made the NCAA Tournament, they would make close to 2 million dollars at the time for every game they played. And then he talked about how that money went to the other schools and how the Horizon a couple of times had 2 teams in the NCAA Tournament not just one. He went on to state how a call in the middle of the season could influence a team making the tournament in a mid-major and how that related to who would his coaches like to see more than some young kid that has not "name" or recognition to his officiating at that level. He even went on and on about if you were west of this town you probably were not as good of an official, but he would need you because you were closer to his a school in that location. Where if you were east of that same town, you would likely have seen much better ball but you were in competition for fewer slots based on your location and that he could use multiple officials from that area at that time. His conversations about that were by far the best, but again I did not learn about rotations, dealing with coaches or what he made a decision about when hiring someone.

A lot of the campers ended up being D1 officials. A lot of his clinicians went from being lower level D1 guys or D2 officials to go on to work the B1G or other conferences like the B12 Consortium (which was one of the first ones at the D1 level at the time). It was actually amazing experience, but not a one for vast opportunities if you did not have someone in your corner that knew him well. Now when John went on to work as the NCAA Supervisor, different supervisors took over his leagues, and then in some cases there were more opportunities for those in certain areas after he left. But I will always be thankful to John and the experience, but I was already an experienced official when I attended his stuff.

And that is wrong if that is the case and not what I would ever defend. That is not about the camp system that is about that supervisor. Many of my assignors that took our money for camps, either would pay us back or even apply it to next year's camp if they those cannot attend the rescheduled event.

Peace

Isn't it simple? Camps are a racket but "solutions" or changes can only be performed by those running the racket. That won't happen so on it goes.

It's like asking Trump to change the bankruptcy laws.:eek:

Like politics or a bill, what is the solution? Leagues are going to hire people one way or the other. What is the solution? You either have a camp system of some kind or you will have nothing and hope you know the right people. What is your solution?

Peace

I definitely have solutions to offer but that is irrelevant. Only those in charge can make the changes. A "camp system" or any other type of "system" is necessary in order to evaluate the abilities of people, whether basketball or....anything else. I would not call the current method, for college basketball officials a "system", rather I would elect to use other words such as "network, club, organization, racket, etc."

Not looking to debate, just giving my two cents.

That is fine that you are not looking for a debate, but that was not the point of my question. My position is that no matter what you do, someone is going to hire you based off of some kind of "network, club or organization." So if not by camps, how are you going to get hired?

Now you can call it whatever you like, but the reality and the only thing I am focused on is whatever that is, there will be someone complaining. Either you treat this like a business or you treat it like someone has to give you something for being a true "independent contractor." And no one is putting a gun to any of our heads to pay any amount for a clinic. The majority of us are high school officials at best. In my state, you can go to camps that are either free or around $20 if you have to get some clinic credit depending on your previous membership with an organization. Even the ones that have a court portion can be around $50 (and lower for Part 2 clinic credit). That is less than one game fee for a high school game. If you are really froggy, you can pay as much as $150 for a camp where a D1 official is the headliner and the assignor that runs the camp with him assigns a NAIA league as well as high school. If the assignor of the NAIA league hires you, you can make $185 for one game, and that is more than the cost of the camp.

I'm just saying at some point we have choices to make, even if you call a rachet. Most officials should never go to that higher level of a camp if they have little to no desire to work anything beyond varsity. Now if that is different in other areas that is fine and I am sorry for that, but not the case here. I am just saying you can pay your little $20 and get what you pay for in the long run, basic credit to keep your licensing and no one tells you anything about how you officiate. And you might not even learn the basic of 3 person which is something many officials only learn by working those games. This is like my regular business and investment in yourself or you can just hope you know what you know and wish for the best by doing what you think others do to be successful. That is really all I am saying. ;)

Peace