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SC Official Tue Apr 07, 2020 01:02pm

NCAA-M Summer Teaching Points/Mechanic Change
 
Purists will love this...

1. Mechanics change:
• The Mechanics Committee has eliminated the closed fist “air punch” signal during a player control foul. The proper mechanic should be 1) Stop the clock; 2) Point to the other end; 3) Place a hand behind your head signaling a player control foul. Too many times when an official used the “air punch” with a closed fist, it was misinterpreted for a “count the basket signal.”


It's funny, the closed fist has never been the "approved" player control foul signal in NFHS or NCAA-M. So I would not really consider this a "change" though certainly it will be a habit many officials will have to break. That said, except in maybe a couple instances, I've never confused a player control foul for an and-1 (and I do not use a closed fist on and-1's). If someone observing you can't differentiate between the two, they either need glasses or you need better signals.

jakeas2 Tue Apr 07, 2020 02:03pm

I know that the punch wasn't the approved mechanic, but to me it is a much stronger signal. Some instances in a game need a strong emphatic call. You can do that with the block, but without using a punch, I'm not sure a hand behind the head gives that strong look on a PCF. Just my opinion. Curious what others think?

SC Official Tue Apr 07, 2020 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeas2 (Post 1038485)
I know that the punch wasn't the approved mechanic, but to me it is a much stronger signal. Some instances in a game need a strong emphatic call. You can do that with the block, but without using a punch, I'm not sure a hand behind the head gives that strong look on a PCF. Just my opinion. Curious what others think?

I never give "hand behind the head" at the spot. Only at the table. I agree that it's a weak signal, but that's what JDC wants apparently.

I also don't "punch" on PCFs (or TCFs for that matter). Fist up, point (sometimes verbalize "offense" or "illegal"). Sometimes I give it a little more emphasis, but most fouls do not need to be "sold." And punching was a pet peeve of someone I once worked for so I never got in the habit of it. That same supervisor also did not like unnecessary selling of garden-variety calls.

Since I will not be in contention for the NCAA Tournament any time soon, I will probably continue my normal sequence unless I get instructed otherwise by someone who matters to me.

SC Official Wed Apr 08, 2020 09:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1038490)
Someone please tell me this is a late April Fools joke. Hand behind the head is THE WEAKEST signal in all of sports.

I agree.

NCAA-W punches on everything and this hasn't been an issue.

BillyMac Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:25am

Turned A Blind Eye ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1038490)
Someone please tell me this is a late April Fools joke. Hand behind the head is THE WEAKEST signal in all of sports.

Wonder why the hand behind the head signal has been, and still is, around, unchanged, for forty years in high school games (NFHS and/or IAABO)?

Observers and evaluators in my little corner of Connecticut have always turned a blind eye to the use of any player control foul signal, which is probably why in a local board of 325 officials we have dozens of different player control foul signals.

The emphasis had always been on understanding the block/charge rule, anticipating the play, avoiding double whistles with preliminary signals, and making the correct call; not on the proper signal.

Of course the signal is the least important aspect of a black/charge play.

That leaves the player control foul signal up to each official's personal preference, often based on what young inexperienced officials observe veteran officials doing in varsity games (or in televised college games), liking it, and copying it.

http://cdn.quotesgram.com/img/26/93/...1FAP944s8L.jpg

I've had four different interpreters (training leaders) in forty years, all excellent, and not one has addressed player control foul signals.

I honestly think that they have purposely avoided the issue, afraid that veteran officials would revolt.

On my local board, player control foul signals rank right up there with equipment issues as the most inconsistent things that we do.

Want me to not enforce undershirt rules in a subvarsity game? Tell me, just tell me, and I'll do it.

Want me to use a team control foul punch for both player control and team control fouls? Tell me, just tell me, and I'll do it.

Don't have to standardize the entire world, I'll settle for just my little corner of Connecticut.

Why beat around the bush?

I usually do what I'm told to do by someone in authority.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.8...=0&w=286&h=162

bucky Wed Apr 08, 2020 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1038484)
Purists will love this...

1. Mechanics change:
• The Mechanics Committee has eliminated the closed fist “air punch” signal during a player control foul. The proper mechanic should be 1) Stop the clock; 2) Point to the other end; 3) Place a hand behind your head signaling a player control foul. Too many times when an official used the “air punch” with a closed fist, it was misinterpreted for a “count the basket signal.”

Why would it be misinterpreted for a "count the basket signal" when no closed fist is to be used in that situation? The NFHS signal is an open hand faced down.

Oh yea, now I know why, officials have been doing it incorrectly for a long time. They will probably do something similar with all of the incorrect signals that officials use for illegal use of hands, lol.

JRutledge Wed Apr 08, 2020 02:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1038490)
Someone please tell me this is a late April Fools joke. Hand behind the head is THE WEAKEST signal in all of sports.

What is weak about it? They are telling us if I am reading it right to give a point and a signal special to a PC foul.

Peace

JRutledge Wed Apr 08, 2020 02:27pm

Case in point.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1038495)
Why would it be misinterpreted for a "count the basket signal" when no closed fist is to be used in that situation? The NFHS signal is an open hand faced down.

Oh yea, now I know why, officials have been doing it incorrectly for a long time. They will probably do something similar with all of the incorrect signals that officials use for illegal use of hands, lol.

Here is why they likely changed this mechanic to some extent.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/g5UW_FB3n0I" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Camron Rust Wed Apr 08, 2020 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1038495)
Why would it be misinterpreted for a "count the basket signal" when no closed fist is to be used in that situation? The NFHS signal is an open hand faced down.

Oh yea, now I know why, officials have been doing it incorrectly for a long time. They will probably do something similar with all of the incorrect signals that officials use for illegal use of hands, lol.


It has been confused on occasion (video just posted by Jeff, e.g.).

Whether the hand is open or closed on these signals is probably too small of a detail to really differentiate between them for most that are observing the signal (and I'm speaking of fans, coaches, etc., not other officials).

SC Official Wed Apr 08, 2020 03:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1038497)
Here is why they likely changed this mechanic to some extent.

Did they really change the mechanic or just reinforce that the punch is not the approved signal for PCFs and decide they're going to be sticklers come tourney time?

SC Official Wed Apr 08, 2020 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1038495)
Why would it be misinterpreted for a "count the basket signal" when no closed fist is to be used in that situation? The NFHS signal is an open hand faced down.

Oh yea, now I know why, officials have been doing it incorrectly for a long time. They will probably do something similar with all of the incorrect signals that officials use for illegal use of hands, lol.

"Officials have been doing it incorrectly for a long time" because everyone knows the "score the goal" signal is the dumbest in the book but the NFHS won't bother to update it.

BillyMac Wed Apr 08, 2020 03:50pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1038497)
Here is why they likely changed this mechanic to some extent.

Thanks JRutledge. Great video. Very relevant.

BillyMac Wed Apr 08, 2020 04:10pm

And One ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1038501)
... because everyone knows the "score the goal" signal is the dumbest in the book but the NFHS won't bother to update it.

What? It's my favorite signal. The most exciting and best call in basketball, maybe the most exciting and best call in all of sports.

I'm not bashful, I always sound a loud whistle. My fist is up in air for the foul call. Everybody is looking at me, that's right, me, BillyMac. Everybody. It's all about me for a second. The crowd is on the edge of their seats waiting with anticipation to see if it's an offensive foul, or a defensive foul, and then, if defensive, if the basket will count.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Q...=0&w=273&h=178

And then, waiting with bated breath, they see my fist come down hard to score the goal (sometimes I'll take a little extra step away from the players ("Heh. Look at me.") and a little hop to get my fist started from higher up in the air, maybe add a little extra "air guitar windmill", and I'll always yell, "Count it"), followed by a block (for example) signal (I often get so excited that I use my fists instead of my open hands) and then half the crowd goes crazy with excitement (in my dream they hoist me up their shoulders and carry me around the gym with colorful streamers falling from the ceiling) as the other half yells something about me keeping my day job, or maybe something worse.

It's poetry in motion.

It doesn't get any better than that.

I can wax on for a lot longer.

I actually had to wait until my third game to make this exciting call this past season.

bucky Wed Apr 08, 2020 04:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1038497)
Here is why they likely changed this mechanic to some extent.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/g5UW_FB3n0I" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

If only the official would have placed his hand behind his head, lol.

JRutledge Wed Apr 08, 2020 05:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1038505)
If only the official would have placed his hand behind his head, lol.

Well, it would have looked different than how we count the basket. Again signals do communicate and if you do not communicate the proper way. If his body language was different it might have been clearer. But he was very casual (which is fine), but it looked like possibly a defensive foul.

Again, I do not see the big deal. We did the traditional PC foul for years and no one was complaining.

Peace

Freddy Wed Apr 08, 2020 07:29pm

Is This What It's All About?
 
I had trouble identifying the relevance of this discussion, maybe because I don't do NCAA. But I remember one call that happened late this past season that I made a clip of. This is a very good official who, though he's registered as a high school referee, does mostly NCAA-M; I was fortunate to get him to fill in the day before for an injured partner. Solid official, no doubt. This particular ruling was obviously intended to be a block but was just as obviously misinterpreted by most others involved.
Does this illustrate what all this is all about? (I don't recall this topic being an issue with NFHS-oriented officials)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OpLhXx6N8jM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

SC Official Wed Apr 08, 2020 08:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1038507)
I had trouble identifying the relevance of this discussion, maybe because I don't do NCAA. But I remember one call that happened late this past season that I made a clip of. This is a very good official who, though he's registered as a high school referee, does mostly NCAA-M; I was fortunate to get him to fill in the day before for an injured partner. Solid official, no doubt. This particular ruling was obviously intended to be a block but was just as obviously misinterpreted by most others involved.
Does this illustrate what all this is all about? (I don't recall this topic being an issue with NFHS-oriented officials)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OpLhXx6N8jM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If he had given a preliminary blocking signal like 99.9% of officials do on block/charge plays there would have been no confusion.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Apr 08, 2020 08:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeas2 (Post 1038485)
I know that the punch wasn't the approved mechanic, but to me it is a much stronger signal. Some instances in a game need a strong emphatic call. You can do that with the block, but without using a punch, I'm not sure a hand behind the head gives that strong look on a PCF. Just my opinion. Curious what others think?


If you are not giving yourself a headache by hitting the back of your head then you aren't doing correctly, 🤣!

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Thu Apr 09, 2020 05:10am

Holding ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1038510)
If he had given a preliminary blocking signal like 99.9% of officials do on block/charge plays there would have been no confusion.

He actually reported a holding foul.

Looks like he reported a two digit (maybe 14) offender, which would have been the player to the shooter's right, rather than the single digit (maybe 3) player in front of the shooter (who took the brunt of the shooter's forward momentum and ended up on the floor).

BillyMac Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:16am

Mutt And Jeff ... ...
 
(Young'uns: Look it up on the Google.)

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.N...=0&w=300&h=300

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1038504)
It's my favorite signal. The most exciting and best call in basketball, maybe the most exciting and best call in all of sports. It's poetry in motion. It doesn't get any better than that. I can wax on for a lot longer.

Of course, that all goes down the toilet if I'm the lead (Mutt) and I don't see the ball go in my peripheral vision, and my partner (Jeff) doesn't realize that I didn't see the ball go in (or doesn't bother to look for it).

Worked with a rookie this past season who didn't know if the ball was inflated or stuffed. I made it all the way to the reporting area having no idea that the ball went in. Of course I didn't count the basket and reported two free throws.

Offended coach yelled, "Why didn't the basket count?". Went back to my partner, "Did the ball go in the basket?". Partner replied "I don't know". Went back to the table, asked them, and they replied that the ball went in.

If there had been a hole in the court, I would have crawled into it.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.G...=0&w=249&h=167

Nevadaref Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1038507)
I had trouble identifying the relevance of this discussion, maybe because I don't do NCAA. But I remember one call that happened late this past season that I made a clip of. This is a very good official who, though he's registered as a high school referee, does mostly NCAA-M; I was fortunate to get him to fill in the day before for an injured partner. Solid official, no doubt. This particular ruling was obviously intended to be a block but was just as obviously misinterpreted by most others involved.
Does this illustrate what all this is all about? (I don't recall this topic being an issue with NFHS-oriented officials)
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OpLhXx6N8jM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Do you also go opposite table after reporting a foul in your area?

Freddy Thu Apr 09, 2020 02:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1038518)
Do you also go opposite table after reporting a foul in your area?

Yes, beginning this past season. Back to what it was in 2006 or so.

Remington Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:13am

Jay Bilas is smiling ear to ear upon this decision. His lack of knowledge on LGP and what is block vs charge will drive me crazy forever. I will be paraphrasing my statement, but many times he has said if the NCAA would get rid of the punch signal, there would be far fewer charge calls because officials like to show off making the signal. I know I am preaching to the crowd here, but I can't help but wonder if his clamoring didn't get into the head of JD.

SC Official Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remington (Post 1038522)
Jay Bilas is smiling ear to ear upon this decision. His lack of knowledge on LGP and what is block vs charge will drive me crazy forever. I will be paraphrasing my statement, but many times he has said if the NCAA would get rid of the punch signal, there would be far fewer charge calls because officials like to show off making the signal. I know I am preaching to the crowd here, but I can't help but wonder if his clamoring didn't get into the head of JD.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Bilas had zero to do with this.

And the punch has never been the approved PCF signal. I see many theatrical PCF mechanics that don't even involve a punch.

BillyMac Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:58pm

There's No Business Like Show Business (Ethel Merman, 1946) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1038523)
... theatrical ...

Great description of many player control foul signals.

http://broadwayscene.com/wp-content/...l1-228x300.jpg

Of course, my "count it and one" signal is also theatrical, but it's classy Broadway theatrical, and it's by the script, as Irving Berlin, Richard Rodgers, and Oscar Hammerstein intended.

JRutledge Sun Apr 12, 2020 04:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remington (Post 1038522)
Jay Bilas is smiling ear to ear upon this decision. His lack of knowledge on LGP and what is block vs charge will drive me crazy forever. I will be paraphrasing my statement, but many times he has said if the NCAA would get rid of the punch signal, there would be far fewer charge calls because officials like to show off making the signal. I know I am preaching to the crowd here, but I can't help but wonder if his clamoring didn't get into the head of JD.

Well JD does not make the decision, the CCA Committee does. I also doubt they care what Bilas does as well. Bilas gets mocked in many conversations by those that are in officiating circles that make decisions.

Peace

Camron Rust Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1038525)
Well JD does not make the decision, the CCA Committee does. I also doubt they care what Bilas does as well. Bilas gets mocked in many conversations by those that are in officiating circles that make decisions.

Peace

Do you really think the CCA gets into mechanics?

Raymond Mon Apr 13, 2020 09:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1038526)
Do you really think the CCA gets into mechanics?

It is called the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual and it is not available through the NCAA Arbiter publications link, so who should we put the onus on? JD Collins is one of 10 members of the CCA Mechanics Manual Committee, which produces the manual.

bucky Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remington (Post 1038522)
...but many times he has said if the NCAA would get rid of the punch signal, there would be far fewer charge calls because officials like to show off making the signal

Someone please cue Dee Kantner.

Camron Rust Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1038527)
It is called the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual and it is not available through the NCAA Arbiter publications link, so who should we put the onus on? JD Collins is one of 10 members of the CCA Mechanics Manual Committee, which produces the manual.

Fair enough, but I'm guessing it isn't the coaches, AD's, or conference commissioners that actually have much, if any, say in mechanics. They probably rubber stamp what some official or set of officials propose in that area.

JRutledge Mon Apr 13, 2020 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1038526)
Do you really think the CCA gets into mechanics?

Just as stated he is one person on the committee. So I am sure other supervisors (which make up most of the committee) have a say. I know the B1G had a huge influence in recent years with something they were doing in the B1G before it was put in the book and the supervisor is on the committee now. I am sure there is some debate as to what should be done. Heck JD might be also announcing some changes, but these notes are things that are not final when it comes to mechanics.

Peace

ilyazhito Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:46am

My PCF signal involves stopping the clock with a fist, followed by putting the hand that stopped the clock behind the head and punching with the other hand. This cannot be confused with a score the goal signal. For contrast, I use the approved "score the goal" signal with an open hand, the same hand that stopped the clock. That said, I understand why the CCA Men's Mechanics Committee made the change to have the hand behind the head.
The $1,000,000 question is who among Division I officials will actually comply with the new directive in the upcoming season, and will this directive be followed in the 2021 tournament, should it happen?

JRutledge Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1039383)
My PCF signal involves stopping the clock with a fist, followed by putting the hand that stopped the clock behind the head and punching with the other hand. This cannot be confused with a score the goal signal. For contrast, I use the approved "score the goal" signal with an open hand, the same hand that stopped the clock. That said, I understand why the CCA Men's Mechanics Committee made the change to have the hand behind the head.
The $1,000,000 question is who among Division I officials will actually comply with the new directive in the upcoming season, and will this directive be followed in the 2021 tournament, should it happen?

It might be used as a factor if someone is consistently using proper mechanics or if someone is not using proper mechanics, especially if the margin of difference is so close. But it would not likely be with just this one thing, it would be other mechanics or procedures addressed I am sure.

Peace


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