Wrong team awarded AP throw-in
 

A play straight out of the NFHS basketball case book occurred tonight in the large-school boys regional championship game.

The referee awarded the ball to the wrong team to start the second quarter. The throw-in was completed and a player was dribbling in the frontcourt near the 28-foot mark when the horn was sounded by the table crew. Play was stopped with 7:56 on the clock and officials were informed that the other team should have had the ball to begin the quarter.

What did the crew do?
Reset the clock to 8:00 and start the quarter over with the other team executing an AP throw-in from the division line opposite the table. Yikes! :eek:

Yay! Common sense prevailed. Not a single person involved in the game thought that was the wrong thing to do.


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Well, that presents us with a quandry.
Now I'm not sure now how to train officials what to learn and enforce.
A) "Common Sense" = the rule as written, which is available to everyone everywhere?
...or...
B) "Common Sense" = Rich's opinion, which is known only by those who are aware of his personal preference?
Right when I thought this was getting easy. Ugh.
:rolleyes:

It's a terrible rule. Should fall under correctable errors before a change of possession.

Nobody playing in the game with any integrity wants an unwarranted possession.


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I agree with Rich's point that a "do over" in this situation makes logical sense, but the problem is the myriad of what ifs that come in to play. The rule was written the way it was to provide a consistent way to deal with this situation and avoiding the various things that might happen after the throw-in is completed. Obviously it makes sense in the situation presented because only 4 seconds elapsed, but what if it had been 30 seconds? Do we still have a do over? What if the defense had committed a foul and it was discovered at that point? Do we still have a do over including erasing the foul? What if the offense had called a timeout and it was discovered then? Do we still have a do over and give the timeout back? I'm sure we could come up with logical ways to handle all of these, but the door is wide open for random decisions by officials if it isn't supported by the rules.

How about this? If there is an intervening act--e.g., a foul, violation or basket--apply the rule as written. If not, do it over. This would be as consistent as the current rule.

I've had this happen once or twice. In one game, we caught our error just after the in-bound player caught the throw-in; we did a do-over. The other time, the coach brought our error to our attention after a basket had been scored; I explained the rule to the coach, who accepted the explanation, and we played on from the point of the basket.

In any event, it serves as a reminder, when there is a break in the action, to always reinforce whose throw-in and where.

Edit, after Raymond's comment (Post #7): Neither of my errors occurred on AP possessions, but after time-outs. But Raymond's point is a good one.

An example of why officials need to be diligent in tracking the AP arrow internally.

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And I think your exact scenarios reflect the intent of the rule.

The approved options for when officials get something wrong -- I'm thinkin' 2-10 here, to wit -- seem to be such that they inflict pain upon the crew such because the resolution isn't understood ("That's not fair!") and takes extraordinary 'splainin'. I wonder if by intent. Hmmmm.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

6.4.1 SITUATION D: It is Team B’s turn for the next throw-in under the alternating- possession procedure. By mistake, Team A is given that throw-in. Team A completes the throw-in to teammate A2. RULING: Once the throw-in ends – it is too late to change anything ... it is too late to correct the error of awarding the ball to the wrong team. The alternating-possession arrow will remain for Team B’s next throw-in. (4-42-5; 6-4-4; 6-4-5)

7-6-6: When an official administers a throw-in to the wrong team, the
mistake must be rectified before the throw-in ends.

The way I remember this AP interpretation is to use the silly phrase (not actually stated to the coach, that wouldn't sit well with him), "Sorry coach, but you'll get two of the next three".

If the NFHS wanted this interpreted a different way, they would have made it a correctable error (or somehow changed it) a very long time ago.

7-6-6 is very clear, doesn't leave any wiggle room, and can be consistently applied, even if it doesn't seem fair (like some actual corrected correctable errors).

I believe that in situations like this, it's probably best to go by the written rule (it's pretty difficult for someone (coach, assignment commissioner, athletic director) to complain when one goes by the book (even though they may still complain about the original error).

Just be 100% certain that the offended team gets the next arrow. To do otherwise would invite disaster.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.U...=0&w=300&h=300

But who knows? Managing the game is sometimes more than just rulebook knowledge. Maybe two wrongs do make a right?

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.s...95&w=186&h=104

I Am Curious (Yellow) (1969) ...
 

I'm curious. Why? Or how?

Arrow at table pointing wrong way? Referee screwed it up by not looking at the table (had the wrong team in his head, or his extra whistle in the wrong pocket, or elastic band on the wrong wrist)? Wrong team stepped out of bounds to take the disposal? If it was a two person game (doubt it for a regional championship game), was the referee's partner standing on the wrong side of the court?

I'm not sure how serious my post was, to be honest.

But it is a terrible rule.

I've had this kind of thing happen once. Lack of focus. Wrong team took the ball after a timeout. Partner hit the whistle close to the end of the throw-in, we corrected, we moved on.

The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975) ...
 

I'm pretty sure that most of the time the mistake is recognized before the throw-in ends, even if the whistle isn't blown until after the throw-in ends. That meets the spirit of the rule.

Bird Brained Billy ...
 

Middle schools almost never have alternating possession arrows at the table. I've had several occasions where as I'm about to hand the ball to the wrong team, maybe even having already handed the ball to the wrong team, and then the fans, coach, table, or partner (sometimes even a little bird in my own head) causes me to take pause, and even take the ball away from the inbounder.

I always appreciate help to prevent mistakes, especially mistakes by yours truly.

Three Wrongs ???
 

Even so, I'm not sure that I would reset the clock.

If two wrongs make a right, do three wrongs make everything perfectly right?

What's the "wrong" limit? Four wrongs?

Preemptive To Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Shut Up ...
 

Blue font? Are you yanking my chain? Well consider it yanked.

I hate jump balls.

Too many rules for a once per game situation. Jumpers. Nonjumpers. On the circle. Off the circle. Before the toss. After the toss. Before the touch. After the touch.

Yada. Yada. Yada.

Back in ancient times, when there were almost a dozen jump balls in a game, at three different jump ball circles, players, coaches, and officials all knew the jump ball rules like the backs of their hands.

Now jump balls are like the Wild Wild West. Everything and anything goes. Toss the ball, pray that things go well, and pray that nobody notices if things don't go well.

Just give the damn ball to the visitors and use the alternating possession arrow for the rest of the game, including overtime, as God intended when he created the alternating possession arrow on the eighth day.

Forget about Dr. Naismith and nostalgia. It’s the freaking twenty-first century.

We did away with the chicken wire around the court, let's also 86 the jump ball.

I’d better get off my soapbox, I’m getting dizzy up here.

Hate to confuse this... BillyMac is my favorite post writer of all time...

ROFLMAO

I do not know how it is in the Nutmeg State but here in the Buckeye State one will find an AP Arrow at the Scorer's Table at every M.S., Jr. H.S., and H.S. I can honestly say that I have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) officiated a an OhioHSAA sanctioned game at a M.S., Jr. H.S., or H.S. that did not have an AP Arrow since the AP Rule was adopted.

MTD, Sr.

"Middle schools almost never have alternating possession arrows at the table."

Agree, I find it hard to believe that it is rare that a MS table has an arrow. Do these same schools also have scoreboards without an A/P indicator.

And if there actually is not physical A/P device one can be configured in about 3 seconds or less. Just draw an arrow on a sheet of paper or, just use a pen/pencil, shoe, stapler, or anything else as your arrow. Sure those items can get dislodged/bumped but scorer should be recording it anyway. Additionally, the chances of a McGyver-made arrow getting moved at the table are as remote as the school not having one in the first place. Lastly, each official should be, in their own respective way, recording the A/P arrow, especially when at these school which are known to not have one.;)

What BillyMac says of middle school tables is true in my area as well. Also, most of the scoreboards are old and either do not show possession or the operator has no clue how to post it.

I completely disagree with your statement that the officials should be recording the arrow. By rule, that is not our responsibility. If the scorer fails to track individual or team fouls, do you want the officials to keep those totals as well? Stop putting everything on the officials and let the other personnel handle their duties.

How much brain power does it take to remember the arrow? Seriously, it's not that hard and it prevents problems when you have tables that are less than stellar.

Guess what, I also keep track of team fouls, either by checking the scoreboard every time a foul is called or simply keeping track in my head.

I do the same thing as you and have been told by HS officials that it's "not our job." :rolleyes:

It's harder to continue to do at a MS game -- especially if it's girls and if you work two (or more) in a row.

Some of the games have more held balls than points (or so it seems)

I was taught to do so by a high school trainer my first few years in officiating. She would come up to us in camp games during breaks and ask us the score, team fouls, and AP arrow. That person is now a college supervisor for two NCAA-Women's conferences, one D1 and one D2, after serving a few years as a Women's D1 regional observer.

Braggart ...
 

An Arrow By Any Other Name ...
 

(With apologies to William Shakespeare.)

Agree, but we have a different solution. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, officials are strongly encouraged to keep some type of physical "arrow" on one's person, usually a whistle that changes pockets, sometimes an elastic band on one's wrist. We've been doing this since God created the alternating possession arrow on the eighth day.

It's our "Rome thing".

With one exception, all my middle school scorekeepers have been students, and I don't believe that any of them kept track of alternating possessions in the scorebook.

I worked an almost entire schedule of middle school games (post arthritis/bone spur) this year (one freshman game), at about a dozen and a half different middle schools and not one of them had a "real" arrow at the table. Alternating possession on the scoreboard? You've got to be kidding me (plus the NFHS states that the arrow on the scoreboard is irrelevant)? Not a single middle school had team fouls the scoreboard. One had one of those portable AAU-type scoreboards at the table.

"Is it one and one yet? Are you sure?" (knowing that it probably was).

Story Of My Post Arthritis/Bone Spur Life ...
 

Been there. Done that.

I had an odd doubleheader last week. One extremely large middle school, Chippens Hill, is so large that it actually has two boys teams and two girls teams, two called the White Team (listed that way on Arbiter) and two called the Blue Team (reversible jerseys for games that required such).

I had this school's annual end of season intraschool doubleheader. White boys versus Blue boys, followed by White girls versus Blue girls. I guess that there had been an earlier season intraschool game with both White teams being the home teams so in this game both Blue teams (wearing blue jerseys) were the home teams and the site director insisted that it was to be this way on the scoreboard.

I figured, "Why sweat the small stuff, no problem". Famous last words.

Both games were close all the way to the end. Scoreboard watching was important at the end (possible tactical or strategic fouling). Try as I must, I kept on having to ask the crowd, "Who's ahead?".

I had worked several previous games at this site with teams from other schools, so in the back of mind I knew which "school" was the home team, which made it even more confusing.

My head was spinning after the doubleheader.

Earlier in both games I told the crowd, "I've got twenty bucks that says Chippens Hill wins".

You do? You truly disagree that refs should not record A/P in some way when there isn't one present? Wow, what do you do then, nothing? Do you guess every held ball? Do you ask the coaches? Plus, refs do many things that our not our responsibility "by rule". Keep track of fouls? Of course not as it is too difficult to manage for most, but recording the A/P is easy and prevents far more headaches than foul counts. The premise is a MS game and letting most personnel (BM cited students) handle their duties is ill-advised. In fact, I bet the OP was about a table not handling their duties correctly. It is very likely that the table misinformed the crew. If the refs were recording it correctly, then there likely would not have been the error. Get real Nevada.

Coach, I Promise That You'll Get Two Of The Next Three Arrows ...
 

"Recording" is a strong word, and while it's true that the NFHS doesn't require officials to record the alternating possession arrow (it only requires an arrow at the table and a record of "jump balls" (interestingly not held balls, or intermissions, stupid NFHS) in the scorebook), it's probably a good idea that officials have an educated "opinion" when it comes to the correct direction of the alternating possession arrow, be it a memory, a whistle in one's pocket, or an elastic band on one's wrist. This is especially true when there are student scorekeepers and timekeepers at the table.

While a whistle in one's pocket is strongly encouraged (and taught to rookies) here in my little corner of Connecticut (on all levels, including varsity, been doing this since God created the alternating possession arrow on the eighth day), it's not mandatory (but it's pretty close to mandatory, our "Rome thing").

How about this...
 

Follow the rule book. The rule was written for a reason. if a rule needs to be changed, advocate for a change to the people who can change it but don't just make up your own rules.

Imagine the next week in the finals when this happens again and the refs apply the rule as written -- how crazy that coach is going to get because "it wasn't done that way last game".

We have all had to deal with coaches who justifiably throw fits because the crews before us failed to do their job -- apply the rules.

Throw In The Towel ...
 

Equipment issues (especially undershirts, same color as jersey, so simple, especially in a boys game).

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Q...=0&w=300&h=300

I'm just surprised to hear of how many middle school games in other parts of the country go without an AP arrow on the table. I worked a handful of middle school games this past fall before the high school season got started. I think every one of them had an arrow. And relatively well-trained adults at the table. Most, not all, schools here pay teachers or other staff to work the table for all games no matter the level.

Billy:

ROFLMTO!!

MTD, Sr.

Rubber Bands and Whistles.
 

I think that IAABO Officials in the Nutmeg State are requited to use the "whistle in the pocket" to keep track of the AP Arrow. Billy can give us all a complete explanation as to what is required.

Now for my two cents or my $50 lecture:

As an evaluator, if I see you using either the "rubber band on the wrist" or the "whistle in the pocket" method I am going to 'ding' you. All Officials in the Crew should remember how the Arrow was set at the start of the game. From that point on all Officials in the Crew should remember who is to should every succeeding AP Arrow. It is not very difficult.

Watch any Baseball game whether it is NFHS, NCAA, MiLB, or MLB; the only Umpire in the Crew that has a Ball/Strike Indicator is the PU; none of the BUs will have a Ball/Strike Indicator with them on the Field. Does that mean that the BUs do not know the Count and how many Outs there are? No! But we train ourselves to keep track of the information in our head at all times.

Just remember who gets the first AP Arrow and then remember who gets the next AP Arrow.

Billy: If I am evaluating in the Nutmeg State I won't 'ding" anyone but I will strongly suggest that Officials to learn to do it as I explained in the above paragraph. If an old geezer like me can remember the number of Outs and the Count in a Baseball game anyone can keep track of the AP Arrow in a Basketball game.

One side note: Watch any Softball game (NFHS, NCAA, USA Softball, and USSSA) and one will see the BUs carrying Ball/Strike Indicators on the Field because the Mechanics for the four major Softball codes require it. Mark, Jr., has intense dislike of doing it but at the college level at which he umpires he cannot be seen without it. I just carry a Ball/Strike Indicator in my right hand pocket so I can claim that I have one with me on the Field. The difference between Baseball and Softball just means that Baseball Umpires have better memories, LOL!

MTD, Sr.

Is That A Whistle In Your Pocket ...
 

... or are you just happy to see me? (Apologies to Mae West).

Not all of Connecticut, as far as I know, just my little comer of Connecticut.

"Required" is a strong word. "Encouraged" is a better word.

Immediately after the opening jump ball, immediately after the first possession of the game, officials puts their extra whistle in the pocket in the basket (not bench) direction of the next alternating possession arrow (half the time it's already in that pocket), as one faces the table (both referee and umpire).

Every time there's a held ball throwin, or an intermission throwin, the officials switch the whistles in their pockets.

After the buzzer sounds to end the second period, both officials meet in the center circle and the referee states (as both switch whistles in their pockets, "White (or whoever) ball to start the second half". Both approach the table, umpire gets the jackets, referee switches the alternating possession arrow at the table and states to the table, "White (or whoever) ball to start the second half. Come get everybody when there's three minutes left".

Rinse and repeat for overtimes.

We can't be "dinged" because it's an accepted mechanic in my little comer of Connecticut. In fact, if there's an alternating possession arrow problem and the officials don't have a whistle in their pockets, they are likely to be "dinged" a little, not too badly, a little spit and rubbing compound will take it out.