losing control of throw in
 

this happened in d2 college game and someone asked me about it. throw in along sideline, ball handed to player, he winds up to throw it, loses control and it goes behind him into the stands.

the official gets it back from the fan and gives it back to player, resetting and allowing throw in.

no reason this should have been allowed, right? actually was end of game situation, team with ball had one point lead, ended up winning. i say if ball given cleanly to throw in and he loses it, it's a violation.

Designated Spot ...
 

NFHS: Assuming no help from the administering official (once the official handles it, all normal rules no longer apply), would the inbounder have to leave his three foot wide designated spot and/or would the play take more than five seconds?

The inbounder is allowed to fumble (out of bounds), jump, move both feet, move his pivot foot, dribble (out of bounds), step on the boundary line (not over), and move backward as far as space allows; as long as the inbounder keeps one foot on, or over, the three foot wide designated spot and releases the ball within five seconds.

So what did the inbounder illegally do to cause a violation?

In my opinion, this is an error by the administering official (however, maybe the fan wouldn't return the ball so the official had to get involved), and if the official hadn't handled the ball it may not have been a violation by the inbounder, certainly not for losing the ball as described in the original post (need more information).

Even if the inbounder had fumbled the ball inbounds, it's still not a violation unless the inbounder is the first to touch the inbounded ball.

Why would it be a violation for the inbounder to simply fumble the ball out of bounds?

BM makes good points. If the thrower could legally recover the ball without leaving the designated throw-in spot, I don’t see a violation here.

If It's Not Illegal, Then It's Legal ...
 

... and release the inbound pass within five seconds ...

And neither do I.

So, is a player allowed to go into the stands to retrieve a ball?
Then I guess the Thrower, while still holding the ball, can go backwards up into the stands ( a few rows) so s/he can throw the ball over the defender???

Intelligently Applied ...
 

By rule, move backward as far as space (and time) allows.

By intent and purpose, rules must be intelligently applied in each play situation.

Intentional, or unintentional? Advantage, or disadvantage, and to whom?

Maybe it was a good thing that the official reset the administration of the inbound, probably preventing some unintended consequences?

If climbing on teammate to secure greater height is illegal, how about climbing on a chair, bleacher, volleyball ladder, wrestling mat, gymnastics mat, etc.?

T-worthy, or "Don't do that"?

SO is going into the stands part of the 'SPACE ALLOWED'?
I feel the player ran out of space by going into the stands, thus the official should not have reset the administration of the Throw-in.

If It's Not Illegal, It's Legal ...
 

I've allowed inbounders, after a made basket, to get a ball in front of a curtain on a stage (in some of our state technical school gyms).

Same thing with bleachers with fans behind the end lines.

I don't start my five second count until they get back on the court, all with the clock running.

If it's not illegal, it's legal.

NCAAM Case Book:
A.R. 180. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles the ball. A1 leaves
the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?
RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow
his whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall
re-administer the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.8.d and 4-16.1)

Readminister Throwin ...
 

Nice college citation bob jenkins.

Does it matter if the inbounder fumbles because of a bad hand off, or a bad bounce pass from the administering official, or if the inbounder has complete control and then fumbles as he is making the inbound pass?

In my high school game, If I make a bad hand off, or a bad bounce pass, leading to a fumble, I'm sounding my whistle and readministering.

If I make a good hand off, or a good bounce pass, and the inbounder fumbles after having full control, I wouldn't readminister.

9.2.1 SITUATION B: A1, out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in: (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) after receiving the ball from the official, fumbles the ball and leaves the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the throw-in procedure again. No throw-in violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a throw-in violation shall be called on A1 for leaving the designated spot.

Similar to a fumble by the free thrower, the ball going into the lane.

9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No free-throw violation should be ruled in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)

I think that if you want to call the violation for leaving the spot to retrieve or 5 seconds (at least at HS level) the rules would back you up. NCAA seems to a have an interp already. The big HOWEVER I would put in there from the OP is the official retrieving the ball from the fan. Whether the able to retrieve the ball without violating or not, if a fumble results in the fan(s) in possession of the ball I think for management purposes you need to blow the play and re-administer. Asking a flustered player to scramble and try to retrieve a ball physically amongst and from fans whose reaction we can't determine seems like a recipe for more problems than it solves.

Buy Me Some Peanuts And Crackerjack ...
 

Agree. Fans may want to keep the ball, like at a baseball game.

This is crazy. According to this, A1 could fumble the ball an unlimited number of times in trying to make an inbound pass. Don't see how this could be correct.

On a sideline throw-in, A1 could look to pass along the sideline, fumble the ball, have it bounce 10 feet out of bounds along the sideline, go get it, and return. Then gets another crack at it? Say what? :eek::eek::eek:

Close game and A1 has ball for throw-in. Official's 5 second count is at 4 so A1 makes it appear as if he fumbles the ball and retrieves it. Are you giving him another chance? :eek:

It's no different from the play where A1 muffs / bobbles the pass or fumbles the ball and Coach B wants traveling. "You mean they could do that all the way down the court?" is the usual comment.

In practice it's just not that difficult.

You Can't Do That ...
 

(With apologies to cheerleaders and fans everywhere.)

Key point for some of us: Not in high school (assuming it's a good hand off, or bounce pass, from the administering official, and fully controlled by the inbounder).

9.2.1 SITUATION B: A1, out of bounds for a designated spot throw-in ... after receiving the ball from the official, fumbles the ball and leaves the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. RULING: ...a throw-in violation shall be called on A1 for leaving the designated spot.

I also don't like the college interpretation, but I know more about producing a vaccine for the coronavirus than I know about college interpretations.

Good analogy. I half agree. Inbounds, the fumble results in the player moving some place and play continues from that place. During an inbound, they would have to return to the original place and begin again. Additionally, in your scenario, they are not necessarily rewarded for a negative play. For an inbounder, they get rewarded with a new count. That case (NCAAM) is a tough sell.

Designated Spot ...
 

Are you saying that the inbounder can legally leave the designated spot to retrieve the fumbled ball but must then return to the designated spot to make the throwin?

Not by rule:

7-6-3: The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until
the ball has been released on a throw-in pass. See 4-42-6.

4-42-6: The designated throw-in spot is 3 feet wide with no depth -
limitation and is established and signaled by the official prior to putting the
ball at the thrower’s disposal.
NOTE: The thrower must keep one foot on or over the designated spot
until the ball is released. The traveling and dribbling rules are not in effect
for a throw-in.

When he leaves the designated spot, sound the whistle.

As I referenced in my post, in NCAAM, they can leave the designated spot. This is also my point of contention. In NCAAM, they could fumble for eternity, leave the spot and go all kinds of places, and not be penalized. I'm going to try this in my next Alumni game and see what the officials do. :cool:

NCAAM Case Book:
A.R. 180. A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles the ball. A1 leaves
the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation?
RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow
his whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall
re-administer the throw-in.
(Rule 7-6.8.d and 4-16.1)

Those words are contradictory.

I forgot I asked this, and came back to see what you guys thought of the last play in the KU game. on the fumble interpretation in the college ruling, I would think that if the player fumbled as he was making a throw, that's different than if he's humbled before he has Made any attempt to throw it in. If not, where do you draw the line? If he goes to throw it and it slips and goes out of bounds along the other, but clearly slipped out of his hand, do you let him redo that?

What play are you speaking of?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Nah, I am savvy enough to make it appear like a fumble.;)