backcourt

[Ralph Stubenthal]

Mark Padgett, I know you are probably tired of answering backcourt questions, but I was just wondering if you would please post your discertation on backcourt one more time since it is the beginning of season and me and no doubt many others could really stand the review. Thanks.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
Mark Padgett, I know you are probably tired of answering backcourt questions, but I was just wondering if you would please post your discertation on backcourt one more time since it is the beginning of season and me and no doubt many others could really stand the review. Thanks.

Wow - a personal request on a discussion board. This confirms I'm a legend in my own mind. (although some coaches and, of course, my wife would say "What mind?)

Here's the definitive statement on "over and back" compiled from years of posts from such respected contributors to discussion boards as Bradley Batt, Bob Jenkins and Camron Rust.

Under NF rules, there must be four elements present to have an over and back call. If even one of the elements are missing, you do not have the call - period - no exceptions. The four elements are:

1) there must be team control
2) the ball must have achieved frontcourt status
3) the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt
4) that same team must be the first to touch the ball after it has been in the backcourt

Note there is no condition requiring player control.

At a clinic a few years ago, a veteran ref told me he was reluctant to make this call in the following situation: A1 dribbling in frontcourt. B1 hits the ball off A1's leg and the ball goes into A's backcourt where it is first touched by a member of team A. He said he feels, that in this case (which does happen every once in a while) B1 "caused" the ball to go into the backcourt, even though it hit off A1's leg. I explained to him that, under NF rules, the last player to touch a ball before it does something is the player that "causes" the ball to do whatever it did.

I told him to look at it this way: if after hitting A1 in the leg, the ball would have gone OOB, whose ball would it be and why? He said it would be team B's ball because A1 was last to touch before going OOB. I said that it is the same principle. He thought about it and agreed.

[bob jenkins]

I'd just add a couple of things to Mark's post:

1) Note that items 1 and 2 are separate -- you need team control, and the ball has to heve been in the front court, but you don't need "team control in the front court"

2) Item 3 doesn't really mean that Team A needs to touch the ball in the front court. If they were the last to touch it in the backcourt, then it went to the front court and returned to the backcourt untouched, it would still be a violation for A to touch first in the backcourt.

[mick]

Just a joke... just a joke.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
I'd just add a couple of things to Mark's post:

1) Note that items 1 and 2 are separate -- you need team control, and the ball has to heve been in the front court, but you don't need "team control in the front court"

2) Item 3 doesn't really mean that Team A needs to touch the ball in the front court. If they were the last to touch it in the backcourt, then it went to the front court and returned to the backcourt untouched, it would still be a violation for A to touch first in the backcourt.

Bob is absolutely right. Here's a bit of trivia to explain why his item #2 came into being. A long time ago, when I first started as a ref (George Mikan era), I asked a veteran official why this was so. He told me that until the rule was changed to reflect this, a team in the backcourt that was nearing a ten second violation, could throw the ball off an official in the front court, have the ball rebound back to them and avoid the 10 second violation. Remember, the 10 second count ends when the ball achieves frontcourt status.

The guy I asked said he got the answer straight from Dr. Naismith

Also - to head off the obvious next question regarding his point, no - this doesn't apply to a player who is standing with one or both feet in the backcourt and dribbles the ball in the front court. There is a specific rule that governs this situation. It is called the "3 points rule" and, for all you newbies, it has nothing to do with a 3 point basket.

[Ralph Stubenthal]

Okay guys, explain the rule where a player throws a pass from backcourt and an airborne player catches the ball and lands with feet on both sides of the line. Does it matter which foot comes down first-front or back court? And of course, what if the player jumps from frontcourt, catches the ball airborne, and lands in backcourt. And what about the player who jumps from frontcourt and catches the pass and lands with a foot on each side of the line?

[mick]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
Okay guys, explain the rule where a player throws a pass from backcourt and an airborne player catches the ball and lands with feet on both sides of the line. Does it matter which foot comes down first-front or back court? And of course, what if the player jumps from frontcourt, catches the ball airborne, and lands in backcourt. And what about the player who jumps from frontcourt and catches the pass and lands with a foot on each side of the line?

Ralph,
The ball is in the backcourt in the start of your situations.
The player catching the ball is considered to be where he was when he left the floor, while he is in the air. (jumped from FC, catches the ball = FC Ball before he lands)
If catcher lands with both feet simultaneously, or as we say "close enuff", on both sides of the line, he has landed in the back court. (jumps from BC, catches the ball = BC,if he lands on both sides he is in BC; or jumps from FC catches the ball = FC in the air, if he lands on both sides, then Over-back violation)
If the catcher lands one foot first, then another, he is considered to be in the court of his first landing foot.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick

Just a joke... just a joke.

When the pumpkin gives up his lunch?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Ralph Stubenthal
Okay guys, explain the rule where a player throws a pass from backcourt and an airborne player catches the ball and lands with feet on both sides of the line. Does it matter which foot comes down first-front or back court? And of course, what if the player jumps from frontcourt, catches the ball airborne, and lands in backcourt. And what about the player who jumps from frontcourt and catches the pass and lands with a foot on each side of the line?

Ralph,

Our assocaition has a discussion board on our web site. For the past two weeks we have been discussing BC plays. Check it out at http://www.saoa.faync.com and follow the links to the discussion board. There are some very good plays on the board, some of which you asked about above.

Of course, everyone else is invited too.

Tony

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Ralph,

Our assocaition has a discussion board on our web site. For the past two weeks we have been discussing BC plays. Check it out at http://www.saoa.faync.com and follow the links to the discussion board. There are some very good plays on the board, some of which you asked about above.

Of course, everyone else is invited too.

Tony

I tried it... I liked it.

[BktBallRef]

[/QUOTE]

When the pumpkin gives up his lunch?

[/QUOTE]

Nice pumpkin Dan. Is it yours?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

When the pumpkin gives up his lunch?

[/QUOTE]

Nice pumpkin Dan. Is it yours? [/QUOTE]

Nah, I got it from Mick (thanks Mick!). It's great,
isn't it?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref [/B]

Nice pumpkin Dan. Is it yours? [/B][/QUOTE]

Nah, I got it from Mick (thanks Mick!). It's great,
isn't it? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, it is. I wish thee was someone to share it with everyone. Thanks mick!

[Paul LeBoutillier]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

2) Item 3 doesn't really mean that Team A needs to touch the ball in the front court. If they were the last to touch it in the backcourt, then it went to the front court and returned to the backcourt untouched, it would still be a violation for A to touch first in the backcourt.

This is a hard one to understant without a scenario to think about. Can you (Mark or Bob) please post one where this would apply? Thanks in advance!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier

This is a hard one to understant without a scenario to think about. Can you (Mark or Bob) please post one where this would apply? Thanks in advance!

Paul - I covered this in a post above in this same thread. The ball could be passed into the front court and hit an official, then bounce back into the back court. In a highly improbable scenario, a ball could be thrown off the backboard from back court, then come back into the back court untouched, although you would have to rule the initial throw was a pass, not a shot to have the violation.

Hey - I said it was highly improbable. In fact, if this ever happens to anyone, please post it so we can all call you a liar