NFHS altercation penalties question
 

The NFHS rules seem unclear for the penalties when an altercation occurs.
Does anyone have a definitive answer as to which penalties can offset?

For example, A1 has the ball and is dribbling in the lane where he is fouled by B1. After the whistle, A1 and B1 face off nose to nose and exchange words, but don’t have any physical contact. B2 comes running from near the division line and forcefully shoves A1 with both forearms. A4 takes both hands and shoves B2 away from his teammate. A7 comes off his team bench and shoves B4. At this point the coaches come onto the court and remove their respective players.

At the time of the play Team A had committed six fouls in the half and Team B had committed eight.
Please list the fouls which you would assess and which FTs would be attempted and which would offset.

The ten players and the bench personnel are treated differently under the fighting rules. You don't offset a foul by a player with one by a sub/coach/trainer/etc.

1) Foul by B1 which will result in FTs
2) Double technical foul A1/B1 (could argue flagrant since it led to everything else)
3) Double flagrant technical foul A4/B2
4) Flagrant technical foul A7 (and one indirect on the A coach)

A1 (or his sub) shoots the FTs for (1) and any B player shoots the FTs for (4). B gets the ball at the division line. A coach is seatbelted. After all is said and done B has 11 fouls and A has 9.

Assistant Coaches ...
 

DOH!

Thanks Billy. I edited.

Unless coach A comes running out onto the court yelling at B2 and they end up throwing punches at each other. But if that happens, you’ve got deeper issues.


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This part sounds nice and neat, but I’ve never seen such stated in anything from the NFHS. One could probably draw this conclusion from the structure of the penalty section, but it would great to see something formal.

I don’t agree with this. Doesn’t meet the definition.

Agree with your point on item 3. Since the fouls were not against each other, it can't be a double. It could be considered simultaneous, however. That would have the same net effect (offset/POI).

For me, it would depend on the time between the two events. If close (within a second or so) I'm calling them simultaneous. If not that close, I'm calling them two independent infractions and FTs would be shot for each, in the order of occurrence.


As for something from the NFHS regarding what offsets...see

Rule 10 Penalty Summary No. 8. Fighting:

Someone has cited this section here: https://bsbproduction.s3.amazonaws.c...fight-rule.pdf

They clearly separate the penalties for players involved and non-players involved.

What type of "infraction" are you calling in this situation? Non-flagrant or flagrant? The OP says we have an "altercation" which subsequently results in the coach coming on the floor to control his players. If the officials define this to be a "fighting" situation, the rule you cite clearly says no free throws are awarded. If the fouls are not flagrant, I agree with your statement.

Agrees, as we've discussed before.

I'd like to see all of these offset (to the extent there's an equal number) and not need to worry about the specific timing or whether it's a player or bench personnel involved. And, in fact, that's the way it has been taught, here (at least a couple of years ago; I haven't seen a recent "official" presentation on this, but I don't think the rule has changed).

It doesn't make much difference in this play, since the foul by A7 is the "odd man out."

The action by the players on the court may or may not be a fight....that is judgement. As described, I'm probably not calling it a fight.

I Went To A Fight And A Hockey Game Broke Out ...
 

1. A1 is fouled and entitled to one and bonus.
2. Then Double Ts for A1 and B 1. Not fighting though. They offset.
3. B2 shoves A1 w forearms.. He gets a T for sure but Id need to see it to call it flagrant. 2 shots for A.
4. A4 gets a T for shoving B2 away from his teammate. 2 shots for B.
A7 comes off the bench.... and participates in fight. He is ejected. Coach given indirect and regardless of what you do with the players in the game B will get two FTs because of this.

So. A1 shoots bonus. Then Any A player shoots 2 for b2 shove to forearm.
Then B shoots 2 for A4 shove and 2 more for A7 coming off bench and fighting. B gets ball opposite table.

The case plays and summaries make clear that 1. You penalize players on court as you always would.
2. If players leave the bench and the number is equal from both side, no FTs will be shot. If 2 As leave bench and fight and 2 Bs leave bench and don’t participate there will be no FTs. However, coach of A gets 2 indirects for his players leaving and fighting. B coach gets one.)

Moral of story—/Don’t have fights...🙃

(2) is not true. Fight participants and non-participants are treated differently. They don't offset each other.

Coaches are not relevant any longer. (Assuming they’re not swinging etc)However, in past days they would be bench personnel. Count number from each side. If equal- NO FTs. If some of those fight the penalty was more indirects to coach and he is ejected.

The number leaving the bench determines if FTs are shot for those infractions. You have to figure out players on court stuff based on what they do. 2 seaoarate procedures. We don’t mix and match and offset all....
HOWEVER, if you did there’d only be a handful on planet who’d know if it was done correctly..

Only one player in the OP comes off the bench....

Yes, I know. Was giving a further interp...

What fight? If you're giving just giving T's to the players there was no fight. Yes, A7 gets ejected for coming off the bench and shoving B4 but according to your answer there was no fight.

You missed my point. If the "altercation" on the floor was such that one or both coaches had to come out on the floor to help get things under control (which is allowed) then a good case could be made this was indeed a fight.

Why do you say A7 was fighting? He didn't do anything different than B2 and A4 according to your answer. A7 is going to be ejected for entering the court whether he ends up shoving someone or not. 10-12-8b

A7 doesn't have to be fighting. Bench personnel are treated as if they were fighting when they leave the bench in a situation where a fight may break occur, even if it doesn't. Otherwise, we'd just give A7 a T and not DQ A7.

I don’t believe that you are correct on your penalties for team members leaving the bench. Care to double-check?

Agree. Exactly what I said in my post just before yours. I didn't mean or need to include "and shoving B4" in that other post. Should have edited that out.

The fight rules/plays say that if the number leaving the bench when there’s a fight or one could breakout is equal then no free throws will be shot. There are case plays where 2 As leave bench and don’t participate. 2 bs leave but one does participate in fight.
You would think because a B participated there’d be more FTs. Not the case. No free throws because number leaving bench same. The penalty is head coach indirect for player leaving bench and one more for player participating.

Player on court might shove each other. If have to see that before declaring it a fight. A7 comes off of the bench. Has no business being there. And he shoves someone. You can say he participates or actually starts fight.

It is strange but rule/cases are pretty clear. There is a difference in penalizing if player just comes off bench or comes off and participates.
If 3 blue come off bench and don’t fight and 3 white come off bench and do fight...Players leaving bench are equal and be no FTs. However, blue gets one indirect T because he had 3 players leave Bench.
White team coach gets 3 indirects because he had 3 leave bench and participate. No FTs but white team coach is ejected. (3 indirect T)
You would think blue get more FTs because, while there players came off bench, they didn’t participate. Not what rule says. Coach is penalized w more indirects when bench player comes off AND participates.

I wouldn’t declare that whatever happened on floor was a fight just because coaches came out. Coaches can come out to prevent one. A7 leaving bench, moment he does he’s ejected because one could have broken out. When he shoves somebody, being a bench player, I think he is participating in or starting fight.

It is very true for FT purposes. If the number leaving bench is equal there will be no FTs. Even if 4 blue team members leave bench and fight, 4 white team members leave bench and don’t fight. There will be no FTs for bench players. However, head coach of white gets one indirect because his 4 player left bench and didn’t fight. Blue coach gets 4 indirects and is ejected. That is where the extra penalty comes in.

Billy post the fight play language. They all say if number leaving bench is equal no FTs...

Ps. Thankfully,knock on wood, I’ve never had fight in game. I’ve seen many on various sites. Impossible for referees to determine who did what etc. we are not allowed replay. Hope it never happens to any of you but just do best you can to straighten it out. ...

Guidance ...
 

Here's the guidance we get from our local board:

Fighting - Rule & Penalties
Be aware of signs of escalating tempers, gestures, actions, words from players,
coaches and possibly spectators. Penalize when discovered, no warnings are
necessary. Warnings most times carry little weight. Technical fouls and double
technical fouls are deterrents. Our stripes are the deterrents! Get yourself close to
the situation. In situations where rough activity might follow (players diving for
loose balls, hard contact fouls, held ball situations, player(s) being knocked to the
court), when you blow your whistle remain at the scene. Don’t over-react but pause
before leaving to report a foul or signaling a violation.

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting
includes, but is not limited to acts such as:
- An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms,
leg or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
- An attempt to instigate a fight by committing unsporting acts toward an
opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

Players In Fight:
If A1 and B1 fight during a live or dead ball, they are charged with flagrant
technical fouls and disqualified from the game. There are no free throws since this
is a double foul. Charge each team with one foul toward the bonus and use the
alternating possession arrow to resume play unless there is player/team control.

Bench Personnel:
a. Leave Bench and Participate in Fight
If bench personnel leave the bench during a fight and participate in the fight
those bench personnel are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified.
The head coach is charged with an indirect technical foul for bench person
who participates in the fight and is disqualified. A team foul is charged for each
disqualified bench person. If the same number of bench personnel from both teams
leave the bench, there will no free throws.
b. Leave Bench and Do Not Participate in Fight
If bench personnel leave the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out and
do not fight, they are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified. The
head coach is charged with one indirect technical foul regardless of the number
of offenders. A team foul is charged for each disqualified bench person.

Reminders
1. Players or bench personnel who are ejected due to Fighting are ejected to the
bench area, not the locker room.
2. When fighting by bench personnel leads to coach ejection, the coach must go
the locker room.
6. Do not get physical with the players, bench personnel or coaches.


After the chaos – Officials should convene near mid-court as a crew to discuss the
situation and maintain bench supervision. Do not allow coaches to enter this
discussion. Ask for input from other game officials (scorers & timer) as you deem
appropriate. Get the numbers of the fighters. Apply the rules and know exactly
what you are going to say when you call both head coaches together to explain the
situation. This is not a discussion period. Tell coaches they will be able to include
their discussion points in their follow-up report and that our charge is to resume
play in a safe environment and in a timely manner. If you do not believe you are
able to resume play in a safe environment, write pertinent information in the
scorebook and suspend the game. Report to your assignment commissioner after
game concludes.

Billy, please post 10.5.5A -f. That’s probably too much to ask but each one of those plays shows no FTs shot if bench folks leaving bench for each team same.

This is impossible to administer but it is what rule says..

The statements to the effect of having equal numbers are within each of sections on participating and not participating. That suggests the two counts are independent.

There is no overall statement saying participants and non-participants offset each other or all team members coming off the bench offset.

Again, the only statements about offsetting are within the context of whether the players participate or not.

See 10.5.5 section A. The fouls are treated same for FT purposes. If same number leaves bench there will be no FTs. Even if some more participate for one side in fight. The penalty is more indirects to coach if his kids leave bench and participate.

that *can* be true in some circumstances, but it's not a universal truth.

Each case play says if number leaving bench is same there will be no FTS. Participating gives coach indirects and possibly ejected.

For The Common Good ...
 

It appears you're correct. Looking specifically at (c) in that case:

The ruling then does say "No FTs...." and adds:

Great, this is precisely why I posted this thread. I thank BigCat for his help in clarifying how to handle those leaving the benches whether they participate in the altercation or merely observe. I did not have a clear understanding of that.

10.5.5 SITUATION F: It appears a fight may occur on the playing court when (a) A6 and A7; or (b) A6 and B6 leave their respective benches. RULING: In (a) and (b), all players leaving the bench are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The respective head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number of players leaving the bench) resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. In (a), Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. In (b), no free throws are awarded and the ball is put into play at the point of interruption. (4-36)

No bench players fought in this play. Max of one indirect. If bench players leave AND participate coach gets more indirects..

Thank you. Good read.

New And Improved ...
 

I actually came up with an newer version combining my local boards guidelines with the guidelines that Camron Rust posted earlier:

Fighting - Rule & Penalties
Be aware of signs of escalating tempers, gestures, actions, words from players, coaches and possibly spectators. Penalize when discovered, no warnings are necessary. Warnings most times carry little weight. Technical fouls and double technical fouls are deterrents. Our stripes are the deterrents! Get yourself close to the situation. In situations where rough activity might follow (players diving for loose balls, hard contact fouls, held ball situations, player(s) being knocked to the court), when you blow your whistle remain at the scene. Don’t over-react but pause before leaving to report a foul or signaling a violation.

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to acts such as:
- An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms,
leg or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
- An attempt to instigate a fight by committing unsporting acts toward an
opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

Rule 10 Fighting Penalty Summary
a. Players on the court:
(1) Corresponding number from each team – double flagrant fouls, all participants are disqualified, no
free throws are awarded, ball is put in play at the point of interruption (use the alternating possession arrow to resume play if there is no player/team control).

(2) Numbers of participants are not corresponding – Flagrant fouls and disqualification for all
participants, two free throws are awarded for the offended team for each additional player, offended
team awarded a division line throw in.

b. Bench personnel leaving the team bench during a fight or when a fight may break out:
(1) Do not participate in the fight – nonparticipants are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The
head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number leaving the
bench). If the number leaving the bench for each team is corresponding, no free throws are awarded,
and the ball is put in play at the point of interruption. If the number leaving the bench for each team is
unequal, a maximum of two free throws are awarded the offended team, followed by a division line
throw-in opposite the table.

(2) Participate in the fight – all participants are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The head coach
is assessed one indirect technical foul for each person leaving the bench and participating in the fight. If
the number leaving the bench for each team is corresponding, no free throws are awarded, and the ball
is put in play at the point of interruption. If the number leaving the bench for each team is unequal, two
free throws are awarded the offended team for each additional person leaving the bench, followed by a
division line throw-in opposite the table.

Note: All fouls (except an indirect technical foul charged to the head coach) count toward the team's
foul count in the half.

Administration to determine the order of incidents.
1. Layer the play from start to finish.
2. Determine first the actions on the court with the players in the game during the live ball and / or
dead ball period in which the initial incident occurred.
3. Determine players leaving the bench and not participating in a fight.
4. Determine players leaving the bench and participating in a fight.

Reminders
1. Players or bench personnel who are ejected due to fighting are ejected to the bench area, not the locker room.
2. When fighting by bench personnel leads to coach ejection, the coach must go the locker room.
6. Do not get physical with the players, bench personnel or coaches.

After the chaos officials should convene near mid-court as a crew to discuss the situation and maintain bench supervision. Do not allow coaches to enter this discussion. Ask for input from other game officials (scorers and timer) as you deem appropriate. Get the numbers of the fighters. Apply the rules and know exactly what you are going to say when you call both head coaches together to explain the situation. This is not a discussion period. Tell coaches they will be able to include their discussion points in their follow-up report and that our charge is to resume play in a safe environment and in a timely manner. If you do not believe you are able to resume play in a safe environment, write pertinent information in the scorebook and suspend the game. Report to your assignment commissioner after game concludes.

11/8/19