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-   -   Too Low as Trail and Center (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104736-too-low-trail-center.html)

ilyazhito Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:44am

Too Low as Trail and Center
 
At one of the camps I went to this summer and in my 3-person fall league games, I got feedback that I was going too low in the Trail and Center positions. This often happens when I come into the position from transition and close down, or if I have already stepped down to stay connected to a play, and I close down.

What do you do to ensure the right balance between an aggressive mindset of staying connected to plays and being in a good position (between the 28' mark and the 3-point arc as Trail; within the free-throw circle as Center)? I'm trying to control my strides so I stop at the 28' mark as Trail and at the free-throw line extended as C, but there are times that I overshoot the mark. Are there any suggestions y'all have?

Thank you!

Freddy Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:10pm

The NFHS Officials manual prescribes that, "Trail's home position is at or below the top of the three-point arc extended..." Then, he "may move down toward the end line to obtain a better angle on plays..." it seems apparent around here that being too low as Trail and Center or as Trail in 2 person is not the problem. Not remaining connected with the play or not stepping down on drives and shots from the field and being too high and detached it's more of a problem then what you are mentioning. Of course, like everything, this can be overdone. But the good thing is that if it is overdone, that presupposes that it at least is being done.
There is a good article in Referee magazine from earlier this year on this topic entitled "Walk This Way" which has reappeared in the preseason Referee magazine basketball prep publication. Exceptionally well written.

Raymond Mon Sep 23, 2019 01:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034558)
At one of the camps I went to this summer and in my 3-person fall league games, I got feedback that I was going too low in the Trail and Center positions. This often happens when I come into the position from transition and close down, or if I have already stepped down to stay connected to a play, and I close down.

What do you do to ensure the right balance between an aggressive mindset of staying connected to plays and being in a good position (between the 28' mark and the 3-point arc as Trail; within the free-throw circle as Center)? I'm trying to control my strides so I stop at the 28' mark as Trail and at the free-throw line extended as C, but there are times that I overshoot the mark. Are there any suggestions y'all have?

Thank you!

I bet you weren't too low in the Trail, you just had someone observing who doesn't prescribe to Trails getting underneath the play. In Trail, I'll goes as far as the FTLE to maintain my angle.

I have seen people get too low in the C, but as a hard habit, I step down in the C when I have to make a decision which way to go.

SC Official Mon Sep 23, 2019 01:50pm

There is a strong push at the higher levels for officials to be sideline-oriented in the T position and get out of the old-school habit of going way out on the floor. (Why did that ever become a thing?)

There are, of course, old-timers that push back against this, but the research from the NBA has shown call accuracy is better when we go underneath the play rather than over the top.

Without film there's no way for us to give an opinion on you specifically. My guess is you likely just had an old-school clinician who hasn't kept up with the evolution of officiating.

JRutledge Mon Sep 23, 2019 01:57pm

Mechanics are for the most part guidelines to get you in the proper position to cover a respective play. Some clinicians have very strong views about certain movements and others do not care. The goal should be to figure out who you are in front of and who you want to impress and do what they like. Otherwise, there is no real right or wrong about this for the most part. Just do what they say when you are on the court, then later go back to what works. At least you can try what they say and realize it does or does not work for you.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Sep 23, 2019 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034567)
There is a strong push at the higher levels for officials to be sideline-oriented in the T position and get out of the old-school habit of going way out on the floor. (Why did that ever become a thing?)

Teams did not use to take as many 3s as they do now. So you were OK in that position, but now we have so many more 3 point shots, you must get underneath to see even the slightest arm contact. At least when I started officiating, most plays went to the post. Those days are over at least for right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034567)
There are, of course, old-timers that push back against this, but the research from the NBA has shown call accuracy is better when we go underneath the play rather than over the top.

Without film there's no way for us to give an opinion on you specifically. My guess is you likely just had an old-school clinician who hasn't kept up with the evolution of officiating.

This is why I often do not subscribe to "mechanics books" as law. I think they are often suggestions and we should adjust to the game that we are officiating and the game that is being played. I am a high school clinician and I taught everyone to go underneath the entire summer and no one said a word to me about what I said. I am certainly not a "new school" guy either, but I am not stubborn about what we should do to get plays rights.

Peace

ilyazhito Mon Sep 23, 2019 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1034565)
I bet you weren't too low in the Trail, you just had someone observing who doesn't prescribe to Trails getting underneath the play. In Trail, I'll goes as far as the FTLE to maintain my angle.

I have seen people get too low in the C, but as a hard habit, I step down in the C when I have to make a decision which way to go.

That makes sense. I like going under more than over, because over often leads to me getting straightlined. I can get contact better from going under. Some HS officials and evaluators don't like me going low, but the college observers didn't care, and neither did the people at Court Club Elite. I had more issues with being stuck at a C position as the Lead in press coverage (probably a 2-man holdover) than with going too low as Lead and Trail, and it looks that I've solved that issue now.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll look to incorporate that into my future games.

Kansas Ref Tue Sep 24, 2019 01:20pm

well I for one can say that "thanks a lot" for making the good effort to 'get under' and not settling out in the "28 foot mark wilderness" when action is going on 15 feet away from you!

ilyazhito Wed Sep 25, 2019 09:23am

Don't know why the old school method was for Trail and Center to be stationary in 3-person mechanics. Modern college officials do position adjust to see through players, and the younger generation of NBA officials might as well. I don't care where I end up, as long as I get the best possible look at plays in my PCA (or when needed, assisting another official when there are no plays in my PCA).

SC Official Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:38am

I try to be stationary once I'm in a good position and anticipating that I'll have a decision to make. We miss plays when our eyes are bouncing.

As the saying goes, get to where you need to be to referee the play.

Freddy Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034608)
...in a good position and anticipating that I'll have a decision to make....get to where you need to be to referee the play.

C Anticipates Pass and Gets Beneath It Prior

ilyazhito Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:54pm

Great example! The C is in perfect position to see the gap between the pass receiver and the defender. It is unconventional, and an observer might chew him out if he's one of the old-fashioned guys, but the C is there to see travels or fouls by the on-ball matchup, and is in great position to anticipate the next play as well.

BillyMac Wed Sep 25, 2019 03:33pm

Follow The Bouncing Ball ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1034608)
We miss plays when our eyes are bouncing.

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we instruct our new officials using the same terminology.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.2...=0&w=176&h=170

ilyazhito Wed Sep 25, 2019 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1034559)
The NFHS Officials manual prescribes that, "Trail's home position is at or below the top of the three-point arc extended..." Then, he "may move down toward the end line to obtain a better angle on plays..." it seems apparent around here that being too low as Trail and Center or as Trail in 2 person is not the problem. Not remaining connected with the play or not stepping down on drives and shots from the field and being too high and detached it's more of a problem then what you are mentioning. Of course, like everything, this can be overdone. But the good thing is that if it is overdone, that presupposes that it at least is being done.
There is a good article in Referee magazine from earlier this year on this topic entitled "Walk This Way" which has reappeared in the preseason Referee magazine basketball prep publication. Exceptionally well written.

I read and enjoyed that article. If only everyone subscribed to that approach and used it for training.

Raymond Wed Sep 25, 2019 09:03pm

I am a big big big proponent of sideline oriented Trails. Those who choose to learn with/from me, that's the number one thing I talk about.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Kansas Ref Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1034615)

*I really liked the way the L hustled over to the sideline/endline corner area in order to put in the needed "officiating work":), instead of hanging out in the "no-where land" and standing under the basket and not taking a definite position. I hate it when my L does not complete the rotation and just stands under the rim area:mad:

JRutledge Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1034615)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/suFlFMYMN4w" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Embedding is your friend.

Peace

JRutledge Fri Sep 27, 2019 09:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1034663)
Great learning clip JRut.

I just embedded the clip. I did not post this on YouTube. I believe this is from Freddy directly. :D

Peace

Camron Rust Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1034663)
Great learning clip JRut.

Couple things on Lead: you should typically never run across the lane as Lead, especially at the High School level. At the HS level refs are slower to pick up on rotations and you might leave the crew unbalanced which is worse overall than the advantage you gain from Lead being able to pick up that play across the paint more quickly. Walk with a steady and brisk pace refereeing over your shoulder until you get all the way across the lane and then open up to accept the action in front of you. This will let the Slot official know when you are on ball and they can move on to another matchup. That said, I'm actually ok in this specific instance that the Lead got over there quickly. Multiple defender doubleteams like that are very difficult for one referee (the Slot) to officiate and the Lead coming over quickly receives that pressure.

Slot positioning. The Old Trail moves to new Slot and goes very low, in fact too low. I'm all in favor of the Slot going underneath players on the wing but we mustn't go too low. We need to anticipate not just the next play but also the play after that which is often times an entry pass to the post. Pause the video at 10 seconds -- if the defender was behind the post player on ball side and there was an entry pass the Slot would have have a closed look on that defender. I would much prefer the Slot to be straddling the coaches box line on the near sideline which is 3-4 feet from where the referee ends up. Straddling that line allows the referee perfect position on the wing player and defender should the ball make it there and also leaves him more open to referee a post entry pass.

I think the lead was way too late to start moving, forcing him to run. Once he was late, he had to get over there as he really needed to be there to cover the play that was happening.

On the slot, I see why he ended up there. The closest competitive matchup was on the far lane line with the next competitive matchups were on the far side of the court outside the 3-point arc (with the ball being covered by the trail and the other off-ball matchups covered by the lead). If he had stopped at the FT line, he would have been straight-lined to pretty much anything worth looking at and staying high wouldn't have fixed it. So, he went under. Just as he got to a reasonable spot, the players shifted, taking away is open look he had and driving him lower still. It was a tough spot to be in and he maintained an open look at the expense of getting a bit too low. Better would been to reverse at 5 seconds and get back to the FT line as that angle opened back up.

Once the skip pass occurs, the L is slow to react. I'd like to see the L move immediately to closedown when the skip pass is thrown. The L doesn't move until after the skip pass is caught and a new post is formed on the opposite side of the lane. If there was an immediate entry into the post, he couldn't get there to see it. He needs to be rotating across as the post matchup moves across the lane, not after they get there and are set up to receive the entry pass.

Raymond Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:21am

Yes, the Lead is definitely late in reacting to the skip pass. Also don't like him flat to the end line. I'm a staggered stance/45 degree angle proponent for the Lead.

Kansas Ref Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1034667)
Yes, the Lead is definitely late in reacting to the skip pass. Also don't like him flat to the end line. I'm a staggered stance/45 degree angle proponent for the Lead.

*well at least he's not just standing under the basket in ''no man's land'' which is a refreshing break from what I've had to contend with from some folks doing..

JRutledge Fri Sep 27, 2019 06:41pm

The lead IMO moved too fast. He did not anticipate or close down to make the rotation. But at least he rotated.

The Center was too low before that pass. I would have had no issues him moving there if the pass came in and was guarded close, but not in that situation.

Neither is a big deal. At least there is an understanding of the situation.

Peace

rockyroad Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034558)
At one of the camps I went to this summer and in my 3-person fall league games, I got feedback that I was going too low in the Trail and Center positions.

Question: How many clinicians did you hear this feedback from? One? Two? The entire staff?

Rich Wed Oct 02, 2019 03:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034558)
At one of the camps I went to this summer and in my 3-person fall league games, I got feedback that I was going too low in the Trail and Center positions. This often happens when I come into the position from transition and close down, or if I have already stepped down to stay connected to a play, and I close down.

What do you do to ensure the right balance between an aggressive mindset of staying connected to plays and being in a good position (between the 28' mark and the 3-point arc as Trail; within the free-throw circle as Center)? I'm trying to control my strides so I stop at the 28' mark as Trail and at the free-throw line extended as C, but there are times that I overshoot the mark. Are there any suggestions y'all have?

Thank you!

I am late to this thread, but my guess is these clinicians think you should go to a spot and stay there, which is just complete nonsense.

We still teach a "home base" for T/C officials, but we want them to go where they aren't straightlined. T on the sideline, C on the sideline -- and working low is typically better than coming over the top.

tl;dr - Get better clinicians at the HS camps.

BillyMac Wed Oct 02, 2019 04:17pm

Sage Advice ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1034700)
... we want them to go where they aren't straightlined.

For over forty years we've been taught to "move to improve".

ilyazhito Wed Oct 02, 2019 08:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 1034698)
Question: How many clinicians did you hear this feedback from? One? Two? The entire staff?

One guy at the fall game, who was the former rules interpreter for Board 134, and an older guy at a JV 3-person summer league staffed by Cardinal (Board 255). No college guys gave me any issues over my Center and Trail positioning, and for that matter, neither did anyone at Court Club Elite camp.


Rich, the nonsense about get to one spot and stay there was exactly what the guy at the Cardinal JV summer league said.

JRutledge Wed Oct 02, 2019 08:43pm

Take this from someone that goes to many camps and teaches at camp. If you do not hear the same thing by multiple people, then it probably is not something you should automatically pay that much attention to. This is especially true when you hear things about positioning or philosophy. If the advice is solid, you would hear it multiple times from different people. You have to know when to hold onto something or when to throw it away.

Peace

Multiple Sports Fri Oct 04, 2019 09:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1034702)
One guy at the fall game, who was the former rules interpreter for Board 134, and an older guy at a JV 3-person summer league staffed by Cardinal (Board 255). No college guys gave me any issues over my Center and Trail positioning, and for that matter, neither did anyone at Court Club Elite camp.


Rich, the nonsense about get to one spot and stay there was exactly what the guy at the Cardinal JV summer league said.

No need to call out boards.....everybody knows you are in Board #12. Be respectful to your neighboring boards. We are all in this together. Not sure if #12 has social media policy but you need to be careful.

BillyMac Sat Oct 05, 2019 06:49am

Let's Be Careful Out There ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports (Post 1034720)
No need to call out boards.....everybody knows you are in Board #12. Be respectful to your neighboring boards. We are all in this together. Not sure if #12 has social media policy but you need to be careful.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sink_ships.jpg

ilyazhito Sat Oct 05, 2019 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports (Post 1034720)
No need to call out boards.....everybody knows you are in Board #12. Be respectful to your neighboring boards. We are all in this together. Not sure if #12 has social media policy but you need to be careful.

I'm not calling out specific boards, just incorrect advice given by someone who used to be an association officer. I also wanted to identify incorrect advice given by a clinician, but I did not want to specifically call out other boards in a disrespectful manner. I apologize if my posts offended anyone.


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