Final Four: Virginia v Auburn
 

Not a great start for Keith Kimble.
He misses an out of bounds call two seconds into the game!

14:05. Foul during a scramble. Did the foul occur in the FC or BC? Throw-in spot? Shot clock?

What is the point of this post?

Be ready to go from the opening tip!
If a FF official can make an error only two seconds into a game, so can all of us.
He may not have been expecting to have to make a call so soon and been surprised.

It was ruled a foul in the BC as that is where they put the ball and they reset the shot clock. But the contact looks like it took place in the FC. But I can understand why it was ruled in the BC.

Peace

Yes, you need to be ready to work, but you will also likely make mistakes too. Now if you have times of those plays, I guess I can find them to see if they are actual mistakes. Missed the first 10 minutes of the games myself.

Peace

At that stage of the game does it really matter?

Ask us later in the game ;)

I don’t know the college rule on this. What are the factors?

Blatant illegal dribble just missed in the final five seconds of the game!

Excellent foul call on 3pt try in the final second.

I had it too... was waiting for the whistle. Thought the foul was a late whistle to get the violation.

To no one but officials, it would not. I get it, I had a play like this put at the wrong place this year. I could make a difference to the right coach. But this is why IMO it is kind of stupid the rule we have in place as to make a difference on if the shot clock is changed based on where the foul took place. But I do not make those decisions, so there you go.

Peace

Was that a double dribble with 1.5 left? I didn’t see a defender touch it.

Right call on the last foul...

Gutsy call on the three but it’s right.

Yes it was.

That missed illegal dribble call was HUGE.

Attaway James Breeding!

I agree and huge... giving Auburn back the ball With 1.5 could have changed the outcome of the game. Of course not fouling would have changed the outcome of the game

Event the analyst now discussing the dribble.

I thought so too on the first, and also agree on the second.

Great example of why people need to stop talking about “letting the players decide the game.”

So hard to watch this. These guys are cream of the crop. You have to make that call and be aware of the situation. Another big missed call in a huge game.

Why aren’t you out there?

Hardly any fanboys knew that was an illegal dribble until Steratore came on air.

Not a fumble/bobble?

Auburn fans throw stuff at the refs as they leave the floor.

https://streamable.com/k8496

IMO, the Center (Sirmons) should've called the front jersey grab by Auburn #2 (take foul) right before the double-dribble.

Including Charles Barkley, who said he wasn’t aware of that ruling.
He was absolute class in not complaining about officiating decisions, but rather praised both Auburn and Virginia for the plays that they made and the great game.

This. My God, this. A grab of the jersey too.


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the double dribble was obvious to anyone with a reasonable understanding of the rules. what was surprising was that Sirmons was there because he blows his whistle for every little thing. the only play I wondered about towards the end was whether Auburn traveled after the catch, before the foul, with about 20 seconds left.

I thought they did a great job other than the double dribble

I too thought Charles showed some class there. Appreciative of what Auburn accomplished. Stuff happens. Good on him!

We post potentially missed plays or rules all the time on this forum that probably don’t matter “at that stage of the game.” So what’s your point?

It always matters if you working a college game with me. When I'm the crew chief I make sure that we're putting the ball in play where it supposed to be.

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While security stands around with their thumbs up their asses.

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It's unfortunate the double dribble was missed, but the T knew the defense was going to take a foul there.....tough to officiate the defense there knowing that and catch a double - which rarely happens at that level.


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Put yourself on the court as the T or C and imagine officiating the defender (as we are taught) expecting a take-foul to happen.

I'm not seeing a dribble off the foot with the Auburn #2 so close to the ball handler and not guessing why the ball was loose for a split second. I'm just really surprised Breeding didn't call the take-foul.

Christ, Breeding was not the official that missed the illegal dribble or the take foul.

The T missed the illegal dribble. The C had a great, open look at the take foul.


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It’s amazing to me how many holier-than-thou high school officials have the gall to act as though “I wouldn’t have missed that play or this play.”

This crew missed plays. This crew made some outstanding calls.

Yawn.

You want the Lead to come get that in the backcourt?
Sirmons was the C.

I'm with you in case you don't realize it.

Who the f---, even in a top HS game, expects an illegal dribble?

Staring at the dribbler is usually a recipe for not getting anywhere near that level.


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The T was Kimble. The C was Sirmons.

Breeding had nothing to do with these plays, and he had the guts to make the most important call of the game and nailed it.

How many holier-than-thou officials would have passed on that play under the justification of “letting the kids decide it”?

Sorry, I incorrectly identified Breeding for Sirmons.

I never used names.

A to B, bodied the shooter at the top of the shot.

If you pass on that, you're not a good official and I don't want to work with you.


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I know plenty of high school officials who would stare at the dribbler, know the dribbling rules forward and back, and would still miss that play.

Yet in a Final Four game those same officials want to lambaste the top officials in the country for erring. LOL.

I’m 100% that I would have whistled the illegal dribble as Trail.
Why? Simply watch the defender. If he fouls, you have that call. If he doesn’t foul, you know that he didn’t touch the ball because you are watching him. That makes the violation an easy call. No judgment is needed for the violation. Discretion is only a factor as to the amount of contact that you allow/observe for a potential foul.

Like you said, SC Official.


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Thing is, it’s not a double dribble for him to tap the ball and keep the dribble going. It’s only a double dribble because he picked up the ball with two hands and then started a new dribble.

My god, call a spade a spade. It's not like it was close whether it was a double dribble or not. Where is the uncertainty? It's not like it happened quickly. The ball hit the dribblers foot, he picks it up, and dribbles again. C has to come get that if T boots it. There's no question what happened.

Good call on the end. Anyone that wouldn't call that shouldn't be officiating, but I suppose some wouldn't.

Understanding why a play was missed isn’t the same as saying it wasn’t missed.

That is great that you think it was such an easy play. So, why weren’t you on that game?

No excuse for both T and C to miss that. With T whiffing, C has to come and bail him out...or would you just prefer to not offend T, and not get it right? It's not like it was split-second, hard to make out what happened. You should have dual controls out there when the play is such that 2 officials are looking there. It can't be missed. And don't worry, I actually wanted Va to win. Beautiful basketball.

The C wouldn't see it. Watch the clip again.


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Well, I worked the biggest game in my state. I can tell you that every call was thought out and if I had not clearly seen this play, I would have gotten it, but I would not necessarily know that I would see this as clearly as slow motion. So when I hear officials say, "I would have seen this," give me a break. This is the biggest game of their lives and all of a sudden these situations are always seen clearly. It is one thing when you are calling a game in the middle of the season and hardly anyone cares, but it is another when the game has all the eyes and the coverage you never have during the season.

It was a miss. It is not the end of the world. There was more to play for after that play and that play was called correct by an official coming out of his primary.

Peace

Excellent review of the plays at the end here: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lastsec...010450747.html

Unfortunately, not all Auburn personnel and supporters behaved with as much class as Charles after the game.

You are correct and I meant to inquire about this earlier. Does anyone have video or a still photo showing the Trail, Doug Sirmons, on the final VA possession? I’m curious if he also called this foul or left it to the Lead because it is the Trail’s primary as you mention.

Highlight clips of the final VA possession seem to show the T merely indicating a 3pt attempt, but not calling a foul.

Bingo! Totally agree. Almost everyone missed this.

Jersey grabbed prior to the double dribble
 

The UVA player's jersey was grabbed by the Auburn defender prior to the double dribble.

https://twitter.com/ericsports/statu...87692275478528

Would you call a foul here? I am not sure I would.

I do find it ironic and somewhat funny that Aurburn lost on free throws at the end of the game when they were lucky in a very similar situation in round 1.

this is wrong, Sirmons is staring right at the situation, and in fact has a whistle on the foul immediately following.

This DD was basic and really clear, no quick reaction needed, no quirky rule. The more interesting call is with 19 seconds to go, when Guy almost steals the throw in, do you call the travel on Auburn? after the catch, he shuffles one foot, then picks up the other, then does a quick hop with both feet before he gets fouled.

And the other very disturbing non-call is by Sirmons on that last, fairly obvious foul on the 3 point shot. Shooter is actually displaced, in the air, before the shot. Isn't that trail's primary call? Thank goodness L is there. L also had a nice pass on the inside shot Jerome was whining about with a few minutes to go, where the defender, maybe Harper, swiped and did get ball.

There was also a basket interference call or goal tending that was phantom against Va with a few minutes to go. AU had gotten the rebound, but still, there was nothing there.

If you are refereeing the defense, then wouldn't you know whether or not the defense touched the ball?

It's a missed call at an unfortunate time. Ideally, the contact that occurred between the ball going off his foot and the ball being retrieved would have been called as a take-foul.

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It is funny how everyone would have called the double dribble on this play, but people here and all over the place were insisting that the play in the Wofford-Kentucky play was a double dribble as well, but many did not see the defender's foot, in that case, touch the ball and stop the dribble. I even had some people claim they could not see the play even after I blew it up in my video. Just ironic what people think they see after the fact.

Peace

dribbler and defender are usually facing different directions, thus it's usually pretty easy to tell whose foot it hits by the direction the ball goes.

No Short Cuts ...
 

It's always part of my high school pregame.

Put the ball in play where it goes out of bounds, or where the foul, or the violation, occurs.

Just saw both plays. Don't know what I would do but the dribbling violation seemed like a fairly obvious dribble-fumble-dribble. But I knew what I was looking for and it was slo mo.

The foul on the 3 point shot was very correct. It's only controversial to Auburn fans.

http://fronheiser.net/foul.jpg

In a perfect world, the C grabs this foul.

What is the time on the clock on this play?
Where is the ball put back into play?

Not a jersey grab IMO. A jersey swipe? Yes, but not a grab. Plus, had nothing to do with the play, merely incidental. If a foul is called there, the whole world would be questioning it. IOW, the lesser of two evils prevailed, as it should have.

I didn't think this was a foul. It was for a fraction of a second and didn't impact anything.

Yep, that's what I've been saying. The contact before he picks up the dribble could have been called as a take-foul.

And yes, I have called fouls from the Center in pressing situations when Trail is straight-lined. I mentor a kid who is still in college and we've had several conversations about the Center official helping out with contact in the back court.

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You've got 2 guys looking at that backcourt double dribble, 2 angles, dual controls because you can afford it in that instance, part of the reason we have 3 officials. No excuse that neither get that obvious call. And thank goodness the lead in the last shot stepped up, because Sirmons, the trail there (primary?) and the C here (secondary but also critical dual control) wilted in the last few seconds of that game. Had the L not stepped up on the last play, it would have been the worst last few seconds in the history of a FF game.

The thing with still pictures is the loss of perspective. From this still picture, yes this is a foul that the C should have called. The C, nor any other official, has the ability to stop frame a scene and see exactly what happened. It is very possible that 1 or 2 "frames" either way and there is not enough contact to make a call. The thing will humans is we see a lot, but we also miss a lot due to the speed of the game vs the speed of human vision.

Then there is the entire angle issue. Obviously the C has a different view of this than the camera does, and from the C's position it may even be less contact than what is witnessed in this single frame of time.

The missed DD is a bigger issue. The foul call on the 3 attempt was absolutely, 100% the correct call.

If the defensive foul is anywhere in the frontcourt, the throw-in spot is determined by the line of demarcation–the closest 28-foot line or tickmark on the endline. Additionally, the shot clock is reset to a maximum of 20 seconds.

If the foul is in the backcourt, the throw-in is at the nearest spot and the shot clock goes to 30.

...and doesn't reset if 20 plus.



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I too just saw them.

The illegal dribble was pretty obvious. Tough one for two of them to miss. At least one had a perfectly clear look.

The foul wouldn't have been called 10 years ago. It gets called now. It was a foul.

With the time remaining in the game at the time of the missed illegal dribble, it likely had a direct impact on the outcome. Not the first game this year where a last second missed violation likely changed the outcome.

How about the missed take foul after the fumble but before the double dribble?

I mean, if we're playing "what was missed" then everything should be on the table.


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That's not true. My whole group saw it in real time. Most of the people around us saw it too.

Just proves that anybody can screw up and miss calls at any time. None of these guys are perfect, just like us, and calling anybody "cream of the crop" is a little over the top. Lots of good refs out there.

Has anybody said that yet? I haven't read that.

Some missed plays/calls. Some great calls. Just like most crews out there working across the country.

D1 officials are not gods. They sometimes get treated like it. We all know some great officials. Some of you on this board are great officials. The difference between the guys on TV and the great officials you know is how much time, money at big time camps, and kissing up at big time camps do you want to spend. That's how you get to the big time. It's not because these guys are perfect and never mess up. They proved that.

They did a great job, but also missed some things. That's almost every game in the world.

Your one frame shot doesn't prove it was a foul. It shows contact that in it's context doesn't rise to the level of a foul.

I don't have the video, but it's a grab and it's in the context of a take foul, which normally has a much lower threshold for a whistle.

Not saying it IS a foul, but all those saying the missed double is the only thing here, it's just not.

I agree with you, but this is also why I do not like still pictures as ways to determine if a foul or a violation took place on its own. Because even if the jersey is being pulled, that does not mean the player was restricted. I think the play in question was more about his finger getting caught into the jersey, but nothing restricted. Also, there is a point of the game too where any little contact can be considered a foul as Auburn had fouls to give and near the end of the game. Great discussion, but also can be deceiving as well if we use a picture to say something was missed, but I get your overall point too.

Peace

I'm not even saying this was missed, but nobody's talking about this as if it doesn't happen. In context, since it's part of the sequence that included the double dribble, we should be at least considering it.

Rich,

Yours and Jeffs points are well taken. Even in a take-foul I didn't think that contact amounted to anything more than the defender getting crossed up and turned around. As sensitive as I was to take-fouls I still wanted to call a foul for an action that I considered an attempt at fouling.

Being too sensitive is not reasonable to the offense as they are trying to run down the clock. Officials sometimes, I felt, erred too much on the defenses side and that creates an unfair balance.

Sometimes though they would not be aware at all and then all of a sudden you get an intentional foul. Depends on the quality of the official too.

What complicates it, imo, is that I think part of why they missed the illegal dribble is because they were very conscious of a take-foul and focused on that. Given that, I'm surprised they didn't put a whistle on that contact, even as marginal as it was.

In any other scenario, like say if UVA was already in the bonus, I don't think the violation is missed.

The take foul is a judgment call. The double dribble is not a judgment call. Maybe the official saw the contact and decided to pass? We'll likely not know the answer to that, but is possible!

I think that is why some are not giving much leniency on the double dribble, as with two officials in that area, at least one needs to come up with that 'by rule' call.

Agree. I don't think anything was missed on that. It was just incidental contact. It wasn't an incidental illegal dribble.

How is it not a judgment call? When a dribble ends or when another begins is a judgment call. Now some judgment calls are more obvious than others and in this situation based off of looking at it closely, yes this was not as hard of judgment, but looking at it live can be all kinds of things in mind. Even stepping out of bounds is a judgment call. I do not know why people act like these things cannot involve some judgment and part of a judgment is being able to clearly see the entire picture. I think this play was unusual and probably the official assumed that the defender touched the ball or just was not sure so why call something that critical if you are not sure.

This was one official's call, not two officials. The play was going away from the C. And if you called that and I ruled something, then I would have an issue with you calling something that I believe I saw.

Peace

A bit of class from Coach Pearl:

Pearl on missed double dribble: 'Get over it'

"The biggest point I want to make, and I'm sincere in this, I'm not just saying this because it's politically the right thing to say. There is human error involved in the game. Kids make mistakes, coaches make mistakes. Yes, officials will make mistakes. That's part of the game. Get over it," he said.

"Sometimes they're going to go your way, sometimes they're not going to go your way. Are we going to give God less glory because we lost and ... only because we win? Stop. Grow up, this is part of the game. These kids taught us, I think, in many, many ways how to handle defeat. And that's a difficult thing to do for these young kids. And I'm proud of them."

That is not what "Judgement Call" means.

A "Judgement Call" is when what happens is not in question. It is when the official has to decide if what happened (and was clearly observed) is an infraction or not is (is the contact enough for a foul or not, which player is responsible for the contact, or a roll of the hand enough for a carry or not, when specifically does the dribble end as a player catches the ball with one hand).

There is no question about what happened on this play. The official didn't apply a judgment and decide it was not enough to call. The official simply didn't see it or didn't recognize what he saw.

Stepping OOB is not a judgement call either. The player either stepped out or the player didn't step out. When the player steps out, there is no judgement to be applied to determine if you should blow the whistle or not.

Not seeing something isn't a judgement. It is just not seeing something.

Can you direct me to the exact place where I can find this so-called definition? Because the actual definition of "judgment" does not suggest what you are saying.

All judgment means in a dictionary definitions, "the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions."

So let us not add to what we say the word means when there is no such change in the definition.

Did you talk to him directly? I know I didn't talk to the official personally. Actually, I have not heard him speak at all on the matter. I have no idea what he was thinking or not thinking at the time of the play. I just know there was a violation not called. He might have thought the player did something else that did not make it a violation. He would have been wrong, but I have no idea if he missed the action all together thinking of something else or he

Stepping OOB is not a judgement call either. The player either stepped out or the player didn't step out. When the player steps out, there is no judgment to be applied to determine if you should blow the whistle or not.

His judgment could have been wrong with either not being aware of one part of that play. If there was no judgment then there would have been a call. ;)

Peace

In the end 2 top officials did something we all do game in and game out. They missed a call. This call in and of itself did not dictate outcome. The losing team hits a shot they missed earlier in the game, or one less turnover, things are different. The difference is time to recover is non-existant, however they still fouled on the 3-point attempt.

Would I have made this call or not? I don't know. If I'm on this game and make this call, I guarantee there will be other wrong calls that would get attention. It's a zero sum game to argue "a call dictated the outcome" unless the call was wrong at the buzzer that determined an outcome. That is the only scenario where a call dictates a game.

I wish I had the opportunity to screw this call up. That means I did something right to officiate a final 4 game. Ill take it.

I think the no-judgment involved here means that if you immediately asked those 2 officials what had just happened, they knew that the ball hit the back of the dribbler's foot, behind him, 6 feet or so away from any part of the defender's body, then he caught the ball, again no question the defender didn't touch, and then he started to dribble again. The booted the call. And I sure hope that part of what happened wasn't that the C didn't want to offend the T, because that is an unfortunate perspective of too many officials. If you are sure of what you see in that situation, step in and get it right. There was no question what the facts were, they just didn't process them.

Watch the film. There is no way the C can see this play or make this call. The L if he's looking there? Maybe.


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Sirmons is the C and is about 10 feet away staring at it. not sure what you are thinking are looking at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TEtgC2DjWw

it's crystal clear with no doubt on any relevant fact what occurred to C or T.

Recognizing facts is not judgement. It has been used in basketball for a long time with a particular meaning whether you understand that or not. Judgement calls are calls that, when seen, the official has choices to make on whether there is something to call and if it should be called. Judgement calls are adjudicating the grey areas.

A player standing OOB with the ball is a fact. If it isn't called, it isn't due to judgement, it is not recognizing a fact, not seeing it.

This play was also a fact. The player clearly was dribbling, clearly picked the ball up with two hands, and clearly dribbled again. Those are the facts and no one with a brain can honestly say otherwise. There was no judgement needed here. He just missed it.

When a player has a hand on an opponent, you can call a foul or you can not call a foul...that is a judgment call.

Agreed, but they both saw everything they needed to see that w/o question it was a clear double dribble, nothing questionable about it.

We obviously have no concept of 10 feet. There is no way he is 10 feet away from that play. He is on the other side of the court. Yes on the floor but he is not at all 10 feet away from that play. He is likely around 30 feet away if he is a little bit on the court. The Trail might not be 10 feet away from the play.

And if you call that on a one or one matchup at a camp, someone is going to ask you some questions.

Peace

Until you show me some jargon that suggests this is not a judgment call, then maybe. But you have not so it is still a judgment call. You have to make a judgment if the ball hit the dribbler and not touch the defender before the ball was picked up. And then you have to judge if the action was not the start of a dribble. Which depending on your angle and speed could be up for question. Say however you wish, it is still a judgment call to make those decisions. The difficulty is a different story, but still a judgment call. This is not like the 3 point shot they reviewed where you see a foot on the line or not.

Peace

Yes, those are indeed judgements, but it is still not a judgement call. There is a difference. You see the elements or you don't. Again, a judgement call is seeing the elements correctly and still having a judgement to make....block/charge, verticality, impediment, etc.

This is nonsense.

There are judgment calls and rules calls.

Double dribble and OOB are most certainly judgment calls. Giving a fouled player the correct number of shots is a rules decision.


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OK, whatever you say.

Peace