Michigan D2 Championship

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I didn't see the game, but as described (foul on a three-point attempt) the number of FTs is correct. Releasing the ball before / after the buzzer only affects the counting of the try (so, in this instance, if the ball had entered the basket, the try would NOT count and the player would still be awarded three FTs).

I agree. Since the shooter started the try for goal before the foul occurred, the foul occurs on a shooter attempting a three. The ball becomes dead at the point the point the buzzer sounds, meaning the three could not count. That doesn't absolve the defender of the foul he committed on a player in the act of a three point shot.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I agree. Since the shooter started the try for goal before the foul occurred, the foul occurs on a shooter attempting a three. The ball becomes dead at the point the point the buzzer sounds, meaning the three could not count. That doesn't absolve the defender of the foul he committed on a player in the act of a three point shot.

Actually, in this case it does, unless the foul is intentional or flagrant.
The ball becomes dead while still in the player’s hands. Since this player will not become an airborne shooter that rule doesn’t come into play and the quarter ends immediately prior to the defender making contact.

Note:
Perhaps we differ in our rulings because neither of you have seen the video of this play.
The sequence was: player grabs the ball and quickly tries to release a try, the red light comes on, the ball is released, the defender contacts the shooter as he is coming down. The potentional foul was after the late release.

However, if the sequence had been: the player grabs the ball, the player begins the shooting motion, contact by the defender occurs, the red light comes on, the ball is released, then I would concur that the foul would properly be penalized by awarding FTs and the officials would be able to restore some time with knowledge.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Actually, in this case it does, unless the foul is intentional or flagrant.
The ball becomes dead while still in the player’s hands. Since this player will not become an airborne shooter that rule doesn’t come into play and the quarter ends immediately prior to the defender making contact.

Note:
Perhaps we differ in our rulings because neither of you have seen the video of this play.
The sequence was: player grabs the ball and quickly tries to release a try, the red light comes on, the ball is released, the defender contacts the shooter as he is coming down. The potentional foul was after the late release.

However, if the sequence had been: the player grabs the ball, the player begins the shooting motion, contact by the defender occurs, the red light comes on, the ball is released, then I would concur that the foul would properly be penalized by awarding FTs and the officials would be able to restore some time with knowledge.

I have to disagree. The foul was in the act of shooting. Per the penalty portion of the contact fouls section of the rule book, a penalty for a unsuccessful shot attempt in the act of shooting is 2 or 3 shots. This does not specify the shot has to be out of the hands of the shooter. The ACT OF SHOOTING is the key part of this ruling.

You are correct in your rationale for the way you feel it should be called, but the act of shooting is the key term here. Once he starts the act of shooting, this is a try attempt, thus until he returns to the floor he is in the act of shooting.

The strange circumstances of the play would make it appear this shouldn't be considered an act of shooting foul since the ball was released given the clock expired before the release of the shot, however there is no exception to the rule allowing for this not to be considered in the act of shooting, thus the ruling was correct.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I have to disagree. The foul was in the act of shooting. Per the penalty portion of the contact fouls section of the rule book, a penalty for a unsuccessful shot attempt in the act of shooting is 2 or 3 shots. This does not specify the shot has to be out of the hands of the shooter. The ACT OF SHOOTING is the key part of this ruling.

You are correct in your rationale for the way you feel it should be called, but the act of shooting is the key term here. Once he starts the act of shooting, this is a try attempt, thus until he returns to the floor he is in the act of shooting.

The strange circumstances of the play would make it appear this shouldn't be considered an act of shooting foul since the ball was released given the clock expired before the release of the shot, however there is no exception to the rule allowing for this not to be considered in the act of shooting, thus the ruling was correct.

Because contact during dead balls is ignored unless flagrant?

[bucky]

It may not fully apply but NFHS Case 5.6.2 Sit D helps.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

It may not fully apply but NFHS Case 5.6.2 Sit D helps.

5.6.2 SITUATION D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1’s attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul? RULING: In (a) and (b), the two free throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-6-3 Exception; 6-7-7)

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by youngump

Because contact during dead balls is ignored unless flagrant?

when does the act of shooting start? The foul was in the act of shooting. Nevermind, I finally found, after looking at 5 different rules, where you can make the case to call it that way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I have to disagree. The foul was in the act of shooting. Per the penalty portion of the contact fouls section of the rule book, a penalty for a unsuccessful shot attempt in the act of shooting is 2 or 3 shots. This does not specify the shot has to be out of the hands of the shooter. The ACT OF SHOOTING is the key part of this ruling.



You are correct in your rationale for the way you feel it should be called, but the act of shooting is the key term here. Once he starts the act of shooting, this is a try attempt, thus until he returns to the floor he is in the act of shooting.



The strange circumstances of the play would make it appear this shouldn't be considered an act of shooting foul since the ball was released given the clock expired before the release of the shot, however there is no exception to the rule allowing for this not to be considered in the act of shooting, thus the ruling was correct.

If the shot is released after the horn and the contact is after the horn, there is no shot and therefore there is no airborne shooter to foul. The play is dead if the ball is in the shooter's hand and there has not been any contact.

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[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the shot is released after the horn and the contact is after the horn, there is no shot and therefore there is no airborne shooter to foul. The play is dead if the ball is in the shooter's hand and there has not been any contact.

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I can see where you are coming from. This is where the definition of act of shooting become important, and where these is inconsistency within the rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Note:
Perhaps we differ in our rulings because neither of you have seen the video of this play.
The sequence was: player grabs the ball and quickly tries to release a try, the red light comes on, the ball is released, the defender contacts the shooter as he is coming down. The potentional foul was after the late release.

However, if the sequence had been: the player grabs the ball, the player begins the shooting motion, contact by the defender occurs, the red light comes on, the ball is released, then I would concur that the foul would properly be penalized by awarding FTs and the officials would be able to restore some time with knowledge.

That's it -- I had the latter in my mind.